Episode 96
· 57:27
Hey, friends. Welcome back to the Product People Show. Just a heads up, I'm going to be changing the show artwork soon, as well as the name. It's going to be Product People Interviews, I believe. And there will also be a Mega Maker logo on there.
Speaker 1:Trying to create a unified brand. And what I'd like to do is have all of my long form interviews here. And then over at the Mega Maker podcast have shorter shows. So this will be the kind of one hour show. If you like long interviews, you have a long commute, this is the place.
Speaker 1:But if you want a shorter fifteen to thirty minute show, head over to podcast.megamaker.co. Now this interview kind of happened by accident. We're doing inside of Megamaker Club, which is the membership site I've been running since 2013 for independent makers. And every Thursday at 11AM, we do these roundtables with experts inside the community and outside the community. We have James Clear coming up in January.
Speaker 1:But we also have all these amazing people inside of the actual membership site. And Hamish McPherson, is an engineer at Buffer, and he's been a member of the club from pretty close to the beginning, I think around 02/2013. So we were doing a a chat with him. We like to do these profiles on members, and he gave a talk about, you know, his work and his life. And after he was done, people in the community could ask him questions.
Speaker 1:And I've got a little bit of that here, But I think the more interesting part for you will be what happened when we turned off the cameras when we weren't live anymore and we were just chatting like friends. And it's, I mean, it's kind of like a view inside a private phone call. And I even debated whether I wanted to release this whole thing, but Hamish said he was down for it. And I'm like, man, maybe I should. Because I think we talk about a lot of issues that a lot of developers and indie makers and product people and bootstrappers and just creative people on the web struggle with and deal with and think about.
Speaker 1:So what you're going to hear first is Hamish answering some questions from the community, and then you'll get right into this kind of private conversation we had. Also, if you're listening to this during American Thanksgiving, happy Thanksgiving, I do have a Black Friday sale going on a lot of my courses up to 65% off. So you can check that out. Megamaker.co/blackfriday. And if you're interested in joining the Mega Maker community, the membership site, go to megamaker.co/club.
Speaker 1:We're not accepting new members right now, but you can join the waiting list there. Alright. Here we go. Here's Hamish and I. Enjoy.
Speaker 1:So I I've got some questions to to get things going here. And then, if folks if you have questions in the in the chat, I think, you should ask them. But one thing I liked about your whole this is it's such a great example of this thing I've been talking about lately, which is the idea of, you know, Mega Maker being a community for geeks who make stuff and wanna make a better living. And there was, like, multiple points in your talk where you just communicated that in a very human way. Here I am, and I'm working for this this one place rewardly, but it's just not enough or it's it's too much stress or it's not enough money or and you have this hope of wanting to do more.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Right? And then you're going after it. And there's this I think one thing you communicated really well is just how stressful that can be. Like, at at times, it can almost feel like you're holding on to a thread of, is this gonna work?
Speaker 1:I'm gonna try this thing, but I'm gonna get shot down. You know, I'm gonna try this and it's not working. What do you think you know, what helped? Like, what helped you keep going? What helped you go, okay.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm gonna try this now. I'm gonna and I'm sure in the back of your mind, the one thing you have kind of propelling you is I've got to provide for my family. I've got to, you know, this is what and that's both what's kind of driving you forward, but is also the source of your stress. So I just love that you revealed that. And I'm wondering, you know, in retrospect now, what do you think helped?
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's a great question. I think I mean, for me, there's probably, like, two things. I think, like, maybe, like, number one, like, faith and number two, community. So faith in just, like, a general sense, but maybe also for me, like, a a spiritual sense too.
Speaker 2:Right? Like, knowing that, like, things would work out somehow, I'm kind of, like, I'm kind of, like, optimistic to a fault. Right? So I'll just sort of, like, assume everything's gonna be great even when it's not always, which has definitely been been sometimes, unfortunately, a source of stress too because it's like, you know, I can't remember the exact details, but I think it was like when the conversation happened between my wife and I where I was like, yeah. So I'm not actually getting paid on time for this job.
Speaker 2:Like, this is my in the in the startup. And she's like, well, how come you haven't told me this? And it's like, well, I kinda figured it would happen eventually, and it just didn't, you know, and that kind of stuff. So but that, I think, in some ways, that's so I've tried to work on the parts of that that aren't great. Like, you can't just avoid the problem until like, it won't go always go away.
Speaker 2:But but yeah. I think and when I say community, think too, like, having, like, mega maker, it was it was just kinda like that lifeline. Even even though, like, I'll say I'll fully admit, like, I've never felt like I've really, like, succeeded in that area. Like, I've always wanted to be more of a maker than I think I've I've been. But but it's a bit, like, whenever it came time to, like, renew your subscription for Mega Maker, it was like it was like I knew that I wanted to do it because I I liked being part of that community.
Speaker 2:I I don't know if that makes sense, but it was like having that was like a reminder that that I could get through this, like hearing people's stories, seeing people succeed. Even if I wasn't like, you know, living the the dream of a of a solopreneur, like, could still see people doing that, and that somehow made me motivated. And, yeah, it also, like, helped me learn, like, what did I want. Like, there were so many times in my, I guess, in my journey that I just had to, like, stop and be like, what do I want? And my wife would be what do you want?
Speaker 2:Like, what are you trying to do here? Like, what's your goal? And I'd be like, I don't know. Like, I'm just trying to make it you know? And if there's a lot of those moments, and maybe that should have been in this in this, presentation too, but, I still think I'm trying to figure that out.
Speaker 2:Like, I still I don't know. I mean, I feel like I'm in a great place right now. I'm really happy about it, but there's still, like you know, every day I'm like, am I doing what I wanna do? Like so I don't know. Does that answer the question?
Speaker 2:I mean, that's cut.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. And you know what I like about what you're saying here is it it would be great actually for us to do an episode with spouses. Yeah. It would be great and horrible at the same time.
Speaker 1:If you go out and get a job, it just happens. You you get the job and you get paid. That's easy to understand. But the startup stuff takes time, and, it's one reason I think I've wanted to switch Mega Maker in a sense from solopreneurs and just to, like, we're indie makers. And whether and I just wanna help people make better stuff and earn more from what they make.
Speaker 1:Or maybe just put another way, I wanna help geeks have a better life. And so if that meant I mean, I remember you and I chatting a lot when you were applying for Buffer, and I was just encouraging you to say, I know this is gonna be hard, like not getting in, but you gotta keep trying. It's the persistence that will get you and when you got that job, I just felt so good for you. I I didn't feel like it felt like a big win. Like, here's a here's a geek who's amazing at making stuff and now has this incredible way of earning a living that just seemed like such a great thing.
Speaker 1:But anyway, yeah, I think the the spouse thing is is interesting.
Speaker 2:Right? Oh, no. It's so true. I mean, think like and it I feel like you I go I've gone through stages too. Or, like, maybe I'm just in, like, a stage right now.
Speaker 2:Like like, being at Buffer and or being just in any, like, full time job that is, you know, stable in a sense. Right? Like, I I kinda need that right now. Like, I have a coworker who just he just send out, like, his announcement to the to Buffer, like, hey. I'm moving on.
Speaker 2:I'm actually moving to Zite. And if you know Zite, they're like a they do, like, automated deployment. It's, like, really cool. Awesome company. And his note was, this is, a one in a million thing for me.
Speaker 2:You know? And I thought about that a little bit. I was, like, like, what I what would I leave Buffer for? Right? Like because I really like my job.
Speaker 2:It's a great job. You know? And I realized, like, not that it would never happen, but it's like this coworker of mine, like, doesn't have kids. He's a bit know, he's kind of in a position where it's like and he even mentioned this. Like, I can leave and not have to worry about as much.
Speaker 2:Like, Zite's a bit of a smaller company, maybe higher risk. Right? Like, anyway, just just interesting to think about that. Right? Like, where I am right now, having the the needs that I have, I think it's, like, it's brought me here.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:Yeah. If you have kids you have two kids now.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Soon as you have kids, it changes everything. I'm not sure if I I did you see me here. Let me go to my desktop here. I'm just gonna oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:Economic Policy Institute, family budget calculator. Okay. And this is this is bare minimum. So, for example, the housing is based on apartments. Food is based on the American low cost food plan, all this stuff.
Speaker 1:So let's look up, let's look up Salt Lake City. And you can do comparisons. Right? So let's start with two adults, no children. And then let's add a comparison and then add two kids.
Speaker 1:Look at these numbers. So two kids, no children, 48,000. And again, this is bare minimum. Like maybe you can't maybe finding an apartment for $834 is not realistic even anymore, but it at least gives you a a range. And, you know, just by going up to two kids, you you're at you're almost double your what you need.
Speaker 1:And if you go up to, four kids, it's even it's even crazier. And so the the context of all this, I think, is important, and you're definitely not the only one that is wrestling with some of that of, you know, how can I do this? And in in some ways, it's it's just the way it is. If you have kids, life's different for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 1:One thing I wanted you to address, this was a question I had, was you went from UX and UI to engineer. What why? Well, you explained it a little bit, but, I mean, there's a lot of questions I have around that. Like, how did you do that? How did you go from being kind of a design guy to an engineer?
Speaker 1:That seems like a big jump
Speaker 2:to me. That's funny. So, like, you know, going back to, like, my early years, like, dad got me a copy of, like, Photoshop LE, like, limited edition, which I don't even like, does anyone even know that is? Like, I don't know where it came from. But it's a real thing.
Speaker 2:It's a real thing. So I I I kinda I don't know. I feel like I that became a part of my identity. It's like, I'm a designer. You know?
Speaker 2:And but I think what's funny is, like, I don't think I was ever that great. Like, I think I tried. And, like, I think at times, I've I've I've I was pretty good. But I think what happened was over time, the more I did work on the web and the more I built stuff, the more I started to like the code. So at first, the code was like, well, okay.
Speaker 2:I need the code to get this design. And then it was like, okay. Oh, I can actually do some of this design in code. Okay. That's a bit easier.
Speaker 2:I guess I'll do that. Like and now it's like, oh, I need to build an app. Okay. I have to code now. And, like, just kind of that progression, like and then during that sort of period of time where I kind of had to stop working for the startup because they were were not able to pay me.
Speaker 2:And before I worked at Buffer, I took up this job where they're like, hey. We need an ecommerce store. And the CEO was like, I just I want it custom. Like, I don't want anything. I don't want Magento.
Speaker 2:I don't want Shopify. I want a custom. And and at that point, like, I was pretty confident. I feel like, okay. I could build this.
Speaker 2:But, like, it just really took me from, like, I would say, like, just the the basics of of, like, website building to, like, this is pretty serious now. Like, I like I use so I use Laravel, which is awesome, as you know. And, like, and and I use this whole frame. Then I had to build he's like, okay. We need to have, like, a search feature now.
Speaker 2:You know? And I was like, how do I do this? And I found out about this thing called Elasticsearch. It's like a database indexing. It's like this really crazy search system or not search for search only, but often used for search, and I had to learn that.
Speaker 2:And then at that point, like, after that project, I looked back and I was like, shoot, I guess I'm a coder. Like, I mean, I maybe identified like that before, but, like, I did so much, like, back end work and systems work and JavaScript work. I was like, yeah. I guess I really like this. And the design work actually at that job was mostly handled by someone else.
Speaker 2:So it's just like so in some ways, was natural, and I think just Yeah. I think I think this I I saw that I had a strength there. Like, over time as I learned more about it, was like, I think I'm pretty good at this. And and and to be fair too, like, I I always have coded to some degree, so I never was, like, only a designer. So it was sort of like I always had that t shape kind of like, you know, little bit of both, but I was, like, trying to pull to the design side and it just, like, didn't click.
Speaker 2:And then when I started going with the code side, was like, oh, wow. This is way easier. So that's kinda how it happened.
Speaker 1:And do you have so for someone like me that's trying to learn some programming now, what do you think what made the difference? Was it having this job that you had to get done that pushed you? Because to me, programming feels like it's like you go up and up and up, then it's you kinda get to the other side where it's like, okay. Now I've got enough of the fundamentals that I can do stuff. I'm I'm in this now.
Speaker 1:Like you said, now you have this identity of, like, oh, maybe I'm a coder. So do you think it was having that project that just pushed you over the edge, or do you think this was just something was gradually building your whole life? And yeah. Like, how did that happen? Was it were you were you were you in Lyricast every day during this time?
Speaker 1:Like, what what pushed you over the edge?
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, there's definitely a certain part of it that's, like, I had a foundation of, like, having coded. I think, like I don't remember my first language. Maybe it was basic or whatever. But, like, know, eventually, like, I learned some JavaScript. But the reason I learned JavaScript in the first place was because I was playing, like, an online RPG, and I wanted to, like, figure out how long it would take me to level up.
Speaker 2:So I built this, like, stupid little page that just for myself that, like, did the math, like, form inputs, you know, like, really basic. I'll never forget that. Right? But but, yeah, I think the necessity, like, I wanted something or or I needed to make something that helped me get over those humps like you said. And, yeah, for sure, like, I think one thing I realized too was, like, if you're learning to design, I thought we found it hard to find, like, good resources because it almost felt like it had to be something you had to learn and almost like you had to have the the the site or the vision, and you could just know what good design was.
Speaker 2:But for coding, I realized really quickly there were just, like, documentation. You just, like, read the documentation or re or watch LaraCast or, like, know, or find some resource. And just, like, over, like, the period of time where I was doing this transition, like, more and more resources were coming out. Like, that was probably about the time that Laracast came out or, like, when, you know, these sites that taught more coding techniques. So, like, if I needed to, like, learn something, there was always, like, just a wealth of information.
Speaker 2:Like, if the docs weren't good, then there was a YouTube video that was that would help and and, like, communities, like Stack Overflow that you could go to. So I felt like the community was really good. I don't know if design, and, I mean, this is speaking, like, totally speaking naively here, but I feel like design doesn't have that type of community that coding does.
Speaker 1:What kind of engineering are you doing at Buffer right now? Is it mostly JavaScript? What React? Like, what's the Yeah.
Speaker 2:Day to day? It's mostly yeah. It's mostly JavaScript. So, like, right now so buffer right now is at this point where we have a legacy app that is, like, parts of it are written by Joel, the CEO. Like, he he's definitely not doing coding now.
Speaker 2:Right? Like but there's still parts of it written by him. And it's, like, PHP, and then eventually the front end was built into, like, some backbone. And there was actually some React in it too as React started to get more popularity in, like, 2015. But, like, right now, we realized that just trying to maintain that was really difficult.
Speaker 2:And so we're doing what I guess most people do is we're doing the rebuild. So we've been doing the rebuild for, like, over a year now. And we're just re we're rebuilding the published product, which is, like, the scheduling tool. So it's like yeah. And we're building that, like, fully with React.
Speaker 2:So it's a very, like, lightweight back end, and the whole, like, the whole front end application is, a big React application with, you know, we have a we have a component library we've been building out. Yeah. So that's that's kinda what I do. Lots of JavaScript, ES six, and yeah. And then in terms of system stuff, like, have systems teams that do all, like, the we have all this really cool deployment process.
Speaker 2:So if I, like, make a PR on our on our code base, it, like, automatically deploys a branch. So I can I can test that out? It's really cool. They do they handle all that. And in fact too, like, if you go to buffer.com or github.com/bufferapp, you can see all of our GitHub repositories.
Speaker 2:And the one I work on mostly is actually public. So in kind of in spirit of buffer, like, do a of things transparently so you can see all my PRs and my code that I'm adding. So can share that link later if you're interested. But, yeah, it's pretty much in the open.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. That'd be awesome. Cool. Alright.
Speaker 1:Let's get to some of these questions here. Reminz Ribeiro. I'm saying that wrong. I'm sorry. But he asks, are you working on any side projects right now or just focusing on
Speaker 2:stuff like This is a great one. So my side project story is so funny because I've I've kind of been all over the map, including working on some really fun stuff with Justin. And I think, like, I really enjoy that, but I've always struggled to, like, find the balance because it comes back to our conversation about, like, the needs and, like, okay. Need to focus on my work too, so I'm not, like, letting that slide. And and I'm fortunate that Buffer is very supportive.
Speaker 2:Like, we have people who have who would continue to work on side projects with Buffer. We have someone who actually just recently left to go, like, full time with the side project. And it's just like, you know, the culture there is, like, very supportive if you if you wanna do that. So but to answer the question, right now, don't have anything, like, super active. I have had a project on my mind for a long time, but, like, building an app that teaches coding.
Speaker 2:And it's kind of like a a long term thing because I never quite pinned down exactly what it is. And I've realized more and more that it's more of a it's more of an idea than it is like a an actual thing. Yeah. Because every time I sit down to start coding it, I get I get to like 10%, and then I just stop and and I hate it. And then it just like, processes like five times a year.
Speaker 2:So right now, funny enough, I have a a friend of mine who we kind of are both in this position where we we we both work full time jobs, so we kinda like the idea of, like, you know, side project stuff. And he he and I were like, we should just do something. And we're like, hey. Let's do a podcast. And so and so we did, like, the lowest budget podcast possible like a few weeks ago.
Speaker 2:We just, like, recorded a call and did it like Google Hangouts live and just, like, shared it. And then they meet all of, like, two people have probably seen it. I mean, I think I shared it in Mega Maker, but, like so right now, I mean Yeah. I can't say that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, for me, it's like, you know, I don't expect it to become huge. Like, it's almost just like I need that out. Like, even just doing this is really fun. So, like, me and him just, chat. We're gonna chat, I think, like, tomorrow or or something again just to I don't know.
Speaker 2:So but, yeah, I I don't have anything, like, really active right now. I do I get ideas all the time, and I'm trying to be better at, like, writing them down because that's how I originally got the idea for my my coding teaching app that will one day, I think, become something. But yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I I think it comes down to, again, figuring out what you want. And if really what you want is just to feel creative and encouraged because you're doing something that gives you energy, you might be able to do that within, like that not you don't need a startup to fill that hole, necessarily. So I think there's something there's something to that for sure. Like sometimes it makes sense to just get a really good job and then you can start a podcast on the side. You can live stream.
Speaker 1:You can, you know, do whatever else you wanna do. If all of these checkboxes are getting checked off, like you've got you're making good money, and you're doing interesting work, and you're working with good people. And, you know, like for me, it's relationships, purpose Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And
Speaker 1:freedom. And, for a long time, going independent was what checked those off, but it doesn't have to be. Right? It can be anything. It could be working full time and then being able to do stuff on
Speaker 2:the side. I think I feel I felt like what I've and I think if and when I ask the question, like, what do I want? There's lots of things. But, like, one of the things I felt like is, like, I wanna have a voice, you know, and I and I think and I and I'm trying to make sure that it's not just like I wanna be important. Like, it's not like that, you know, like I mean, certainly, you want to feel like you're respected, but it's not like it's not like that's the only goal.
Speaker 2:And I think so one of the reasons speaking was really attractive to me is because I I felt like I like to teach. Like, I like to teach coding. Like, I've I've really enjoyed like, anytime in my job where I help, like, a junior engineer or something like that, like, that's always really fun for me. So the idea of, like, getting into speaking more was really exciting to me. And just, having gone to some conferences now, because I work at a company where they have a budget for that.
Speaker 2:So, like, I've been to more conferences and, like and seeing people speak. I'm like, this is super cool. And, like, I could totally do this. You know? Like, some talks aren't as great, and this is not bashing you.
Speaker 2:Right? But, like, you look and think, I could do that or maybe even do it better. Like, I'd I'd love to to give that a shot. So, yeah, I think, like, when I think about my side projects and where I am now, I think I may not have, like, a specific product, but I think I'm almost, like, building me as a product. Like, maybe my my myself, like, I I've always wanted to write more, and I struggle with that.
Speaker 2:But I'm like, you know what? If I could just get myself out there, if I can speak a little bit, the the two kinda go together. If you're speaking, you're probably writing something. So yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Even you saying, you know what? I want to have a voice. Like, having a voice is one of the the most fulfilling, things I've ever done in my life. And it has benefits that kind of reverberate across Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Your life. So, you know, it it whether you're working for someone else or doing your own thing or whatever, I think just saying no. I want to carve out space for independence, for purpose, for relationships. And if I can do that in the context of working a full time job and going to these conferences or speaking or writing a book or whatever it is, it's worth investing in that regardless. Right?
Speaker 1:Now you've got options. People know who you are. You've you've established yourself as an expert. You've established yourself as someone who's helping other people. There's just so many benefits to that.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I I totally resonate with that. Alright. Let's, John Friesen wants to know, how do you manage to to stay positive when times are tough? You
Speaker 2:know, it's funny. Like, when I look back at at the times that were tough for me, like, they didn't always feel really tough. I'm trying to I'm trying to, like, analyze this because I I wonder if, like, I wonder if this is just, like, my sort of, like, dumb confidence. Like, oh, things will be great. It's fine.
Speaker 2:Everything's fine. Yeah. But, like, I will say, like, we've, like, we've been fortunate. Like, our family, like, we've never been in the position where it was like, okay. We can't make rent.
Speaker 2:Like, we can't eat food. We don't have enough to eat. Like, we've never been there, and I'm really grateful for that. You know? But Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But there were still the times where, like, I saw myself on that path. Like, well, if things don't get better, we are gonna be there, and that that's a scary feeling. And I think in those times, like, I for me, just doing the work makes me feel better. So, like, when I feel that stress, like, you know, I just I just put my head down and do something. It's like I can't remember what happened.
Speaker 2:I think after I got, like, the first rejection from Buffer, and I was really, of course, devastated. I told my wife and she was, you know, commiserating with me and stuff. And then I just went and, like, sat down and just, like, coded for, like, six hours or something like that. I don't know. Like, I just needed, like, to to do something.
Speaker 2:And and then I felt better after that. You know? Like, I felt like it's okay. I can still do this. Like, it's gonna work out.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, for me, at least, I think when when the reason I got through the hard times was just, like, by continuing to do things, by trying to create something. You know?
Speaker 1:That that is one nice thing about being a maker is that that's in your control. Like, when when things and I think we have to be careful because it can be a crutch as well. You know? But there there is something, you know, when you are feeling down, there's this idea of to to be honest, like, Mega Maker Club, originally JFDI, the whole motivation for that was I came home from work angry one day. And I was like, I'm I gotta do something today that matters.
Speaker 1:And I remember I put up that landing page. I, you know, registered a campfire room and just started reaching out to people, and it just felt like this is within my control. Like, this is something even if I feel like work is a mess, and, you know, they're they're we're it's way too slow. We never get anything done. We're not we're we're not observing what's really going on in the world and then building products for that.
Speaker 1:MegaMaker and JFDI before, it just felt like I saw this need, and I was able to act on it, and it was within my control. So the next day when I went back to work, was like, yeah, I got I've carved out a little piece of the world for myself here. I've I've I've made something that matters and it it helped me deal with, you know, hardship. In this time, it was just like I just felt like work was crazy. So yeah.
Speaker 1:I think there I think there is something about that.
Speaker 2:And that's and I think oftentimes too when I've built anything like my side project, I built Stan to make years ago because I just wanted to do something that like I don't know. It was like that same kind of thing. Was probably feeling kinda down, but I realized that I could what I could control is what I what I made in that moment, you know. And I just kind of and and yeah, it's funny because when when you say that can be a crutch, it's so true because I think also like I can get kind of manic in those states. Like I I'm kinda like, okay, I'm gonna build it.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna build it. And like I work really long hours or I'll like kinda just get like distracted, which is why like small projects for me have always been better than long term ones because long term ones, I just I shut down. Like I just haven't figured that out yet. Like I get to like I said, I get to 10 and I'm just I don't know what to do now. So whereas if I can if I can just like if I can find projects that fit within my like crazy manic 10% state, like, I can just get to get to the finish line.
Speaker 1:It it does help. And I think it also helps to know what you want. And I I think the maybe the mistake I've made in the past is saying the only path to us as a collective we, the only path to us getting what we want is to quit our jobs and have our own companies, and that that's the only way it's gonna work. And I've definitely revised that, lately because first of all, starting a company is super, super difficult, and maintaining a company and you know? Like, I I have a friend who just started working for Automattic, the the WordPress people.
Speaker 1:And he right up into like, he he applied, and right up to the time he got accepted, he was like, do I wanna do this? Do I wanna give up my company? And just in in anxiety over it. And then he got the job. And then I talked to him a couple weeks later.
Speaker 1:I'm like, so, you know, how's it been? He's like, oh my gosh. It feels so good. He's like, I don't even care. He's like, I'm shutting down my corporation as we speak.
Speaker 1:It just feels so good to not have to manage, like, taxes and GST and, you know, all these things that were always kind of crushing him and and a weight on him. He now he now feels free. So there's all sorts of paths around this. And if, again, what do you want? If you want more purpose in your life, maybe you can get that with work plus more speaking.
Speaker 1:If you want more relationships in your life, maybe you can get that with work plus mega maker plus meetups plus conferences. You know, there's all these ways we can accomplish some of these things. And if you want more freedom and for me, freedom means money. It means, you know, the ability to work for whatever city I want. It means you know, there's all sorts of things.
Speaker 1:But, again, their their work could check off some of those things for you. Now I also understand the feeling of being like, eventually, I've got to own my own thing. And I I think, you know, that might fit into purpose or whatever, but we've got time too. Like, the when our kids are in their twenties, we will have so much more time and energy and, like, and money and it like, there's time in the future to do things. And so I I think sometimes the rush of of feeling like I gotta get it done now, it's like, no.
Speaker 1:Well, maybe don't don't throw it all away, for something that, you know, might not check a lot of those boxes that
Speaker 2:you have to want. Think about that sometimes because I I I'm so much in the weeds with my kids right now. Right? Like like like you said earlier, like when you have kids, it changes things. And then you I I drove I left my house the other day.
Speaker 2:I was driving and I just drove past my neighbor and he's like outside like, waxing his car. And I was I just had the thought, like, I would not never have the time to do that. Like, I would never be able to, like, justify that to, like, anyone, myself or, you know, like, I'm assuming go spend, like, an hour to wax my car. But if you use that, like, analogy, like, in the future, like, yeah, you'll have time to wax the car. You'll have time to kind of, like, maybe so that that perspective is really helpful for me too.
Speaker 2:Like, not trying to think so short term. Like, well, if I don't if I don't get, like, a big speaking gig in, like, six months, then I must be a failure. You know? Like, that kind of mindset. Like and not that I don't wanna move myself to have, like, goals and stuff, but I've just felt like when I try to hook attach myself to, like, you're only successful if this happens, that that's never productive.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:Yeah. There's this tension between, giving yourself a push, which is, no. Try to get a gig. Like, try to get a speaking gig. But they're too far down that path is if I don't get paid $5, my next speaking gig, I'm a failure.
Speaker 1:Like or in 02/2019, I must speak in front of a thousand people. Realistically, you can go, okay. Well, you know, what can I control? I can control how many speaking applications I fill out. I can control how many times like, there's always, like, meetups and coworking spaces and buffer brown bag
Speaker 2:lunch Yeah.
Speaker 1:Talks or whatever. You know, how many of those do I speak at? Jason Charms said last week, you know, I apply, like, ten, twenty times, and I get one one speaking engagement. So, yeah, folks, if you wanna ask Hamish more questions about how to get a job at Buffer, how to get a how to get a remote job, how to go jump from UI to being an engineer, yeah, I feel free to reach out to him in Slack. Thanks, Jonathan.
Speaker 1:Thanks for showing up. Everyone's just giving you tons of nice things in the in the YouTube channel. Thanks, everyone. So, yeah. Thanks, everybody, and we will see you next time, next next Thursday.
Speaker 1:We've got, Adam Wavin
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 1:Next Thursday, same time, 11AM. And, yeah, I'll see you folks then. Bye.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:That was awesome.
Speaker 2:That was awesome. Yeah. It's just good. It feels good to be like it's kinda raw, see. Was like, this is who I am, you know, or, like, just this is what's hard.
Speaker 2:Especially, like, the conversations where it's like, this is what's hard. Right? Versus like well, don't It's it's I love like, I listen to a podcast about someone's success story, and that's fun. But it's like or what and what's that book? It's Derek Sivers, I think.
Speaker 2:Right? The whole CD baby story too. Like, that one is just like this meteoric rise and, like, you're like, oh, I could do that. But it's, like, so you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. The funny thing is, like because he talks a little bit about that. He talks a little bit about being a struggling artist and, like, pouring his life into music. But all anyone remembers
Speaker 2:is CD Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think I mean, maybe I do this too much. But for me, there's also just, like, this realism of, yeah, he started CD Baby, but it's very likely that Derek Sivers in the same position in 2018 would not be success. Like, there's all of these things that have to fall into place. And right time, right place, and, yeah, he he built this thing. It's awesome.
Speaker 1:But, you know, nowadays, you could not build a shopping cart widget for music and succeed. Right? And maybe we just don't know. Like, we don't know if maybe Derek Sivers in 2018 just gets involved in a different thing and still wins, but there's no way to split test reality.
Speaker 2:We we And just don't
Speaker 1:so I think what's been more helpful for me is hearing people's real life stories and then just thinking about my story and going, mine is just gonna be nothing like that. And Yeah. There's a tension between making excuses too. Like like, I could just say, well, it's just never gonna be like that for me. Right?
Speaker 1:Or I could say, okay. This is just the my life. Like, this is what I've been given, and what am I gonna do about it? Like, do you you know, like, at the end of the day, all I can do is do something about it. And, you know, parting is like, well, you know, hopefully, they have a community around them that at least helps them get a leg up because there's it's pretty hard to always just be pulling up your bootstraps.
Speaker 1:But on the other hand, I think there is something about, okay. Well, this is my position. I'm 38 years old. It's 02/2018, almost 02/2019. You know what?
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:What am I gonna do about it? And then just go from there. Yeah. Right? Like, you look at your options and yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's kind of, like, what I felt like too lately is just, you know, even in just, like, starting this and I say this for, like, I start I started a podcast in the sense that, like, I recorded a thing and put it live. Like, it's very, very informal. But, like, that that like, me and my friend were like, let's just do the thing. And it was kinda funny because we both kinda talked about it. And that's actually it was great because he was like, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 2:Like, let's actually just do it. And so we did it, you know. And, like, I don't know. I just yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's it's so funny. There's so many there's so many way intersects with so many different ideas in my head. But yeah. But I but like I said like I said in the chat, I've always really liked Mega Maker because it's been a place, and I think you've done a great job with this just building this community where, like, no one like, I don't ever feel like I am, like, excluded. I'm not always, like, super active, but I don't feel excluded because I don't have, like, a an indie side project that's, like, topping product hunt.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean? Like, it's not like that. It's, like, very, like, Yeah. Like there's lots of good real talk and and and and it's almost like I get this feeling like it's waiting for me. Like, if I do the next time I build something, it's right there.
Speaker 2:Like, that's where I'll go first. Right? Like, that's the and I like knowing that too. Because if I was on my own, I'd feel like, okay. I have a thing now, but, like, where do I go?
Speaker 2:Like, okay. I gotta I'll go on Twitter and, like, I'll maybe I'll ping some people and see what happens. But, you know, it's like having that having that there has always been nice. So
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, that's encouraging for sure. I I think I always think about, like, all of these geeks out there that like making stuff with computers. And some of them have jobs, some of them are freelancing, some of them are, you know, building their own companies. But for them to all feel like Mega Maker's a place that they can go and certainly, like, oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna start I'm gonna build something. So this is like you said, I I love that that that's what you think of. But I also would just want it to be a place where people can be like, man, I just like making stuff. I wanna get better at this. And if you're looking for a better job, I want you to be able to find it there.
Speaker 2:So now I'm in this space of buffer where, like, I feel like I grow and I have grown. Like, I've advanced. Like, we have a career framework. I've advanced a little bit in that. And I guess I bring this whole up because, like, I could be spending, like, my time just getting the work done, but then really focusing on this external, like, outside Buffer stuff.
Speaker 2:But, you know, those stuff I do in Buffer can also lead to, like, you know, like promotions that make me feel good, not just in the money sense. Like, it's certainly more money is helpful, but, like, just like, oh, I got promoted. I feel more, like, validated. And that's kind of, like, I think what a lot of people do when they when they work for themselves too. They're trying to build that company.
Speaker 2:They wanna have that, like, you know, voice. They wanna put something out there. And I still get that even in the internal side. So, yeah, it's just it's interesting the balance there. So that's been as I've been working at Buffer, that's always been the struggle too because I could I can, like again, the job's so flexible.
Speaker 2:I could take, like, that hour in my afternoon to, like, work on a side project. Or I could take it to just do a little bit extra more extra work at Buffer in some way that, like, is, you know, impactful there. And it's actually hard to find that balance. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I hope that level up. Like Yeah. One thing I've realized about bootstrapping transistor is that there's very few people that succeed at bootstrapping the way I'm doing it right now, which is they had another little thing, and then they start a software company, and then they just manage to make it work as a one man shop. Like, the software company on the side grows. Almost everybody, Jason Fried, DHH, you know, you just go down the list of bootstrapping heroes.
Speaker 1:They almost all either had a full time job that was paying the bills while they bootstrapped, or, they were in their twenties, single, and moved to somewhere cheap. Or, you know, so, Mike McDermott at FreshBooks moved into his parents' house for
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:Three years. Right? It's like, fuck. I'm not gonna do that. Right?
Speaker 1:And so, I'm looking at this realistically and going, and it's been a really hard year and fearing thinking, okay, well, what are my options? And so it's like, okay, well, and the the part that was stopping me was my ego and, you know, other things going, well, I can't go and get a job. Like, that would be Mhmm. Ugh. But I'm realizing that, like, if Transistor's gonna have success, it's all about increasing your runway.
Speaker 1:What are ways we can increase our runway? Okay. Well, I could, like, really, like, just shut down all my other stuff and just focus on consulting like crazy and just try to get a bunch of good clients and do that. That is also pretty hard. It's like starting another business so I can Yeah.
Speaker 1:Run my other business. We could get investment, or I could get a job. And so I've just started being open to or sorry. The fourth option is for for me to really make Mega Maker sustainable in some sort of way. And it's it's the same kind of tension that you felt when you're like, do I do this?
Speaker 1:Do I do this? Do
Speaker 2:there's like
Speaker 1:you you can't see which which one's Yeah. Gonna work. And so, really, the only option is to explore as many options as you have and then, you know, choose one that seems good. So I've got job interview on December
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Eighth. And at first, I was like, I'm not doing this. And then the more I thought about it, I'm like, I gotta be open to things. And, you know, maybe it'd be a great fit. Like, maybe they'll pay me a bunch of money and I can grow transistor on the side.
Speaker 1:It's hard working through but all that what's helped has been a little bit of like, what do I want? And, you know, sometimes I wonder, because right when I was about to go independent in 2016, Nathan Barry contacted me and said, you know, hey, I heard Sprint. Ly is closing down. Do do do you know do you want
Speaker 2:to convert
Speaker 1:kit? And I was like, oh, Nate I was like, Nathan, I'm I'm just about to go independent. Like, I can't do this now. And who knows how that would have worked out? Maybe that would have been better.
Speaker 1:Maybe it wouldn't have been better. You never know. But I think there's something about all of this that, like, you you can only do what you can do. And Well, and I just get the feeling
Speaker 2:yeah. Like, well, we can do so much too. That's the thing that's always fascinating about this this this industry. Like, if you're even, like if your job even, like, touches tech, it's you just have, like, this Pandora's box of, like, so many things you could do. Like, I have friends who are electricians.
Speaker 2:Yes. And, like, they can be electricians, and that that's it. They there there's no, like, there's no, like, oh, I'm gonna specialize in, like I mean, you know what I mean? Like, I I could be speaking naively, but I feel like you can't really pivot very far on that. But it's, like, if you're in tech, you can learn to code, you can learn to design, you can consult, you can you know, like I think that is such it's an overwhelming.
Speaker 2:Like, it's like and I it's it's been cool to see like, to watch your kinda journey from the outside too because I think, like, yeah, like, you have almost, like you could, like, go many different ways. You know what I mean? Like, it's so interesting. Like and, like, being at Buffer, like, one of the things Buffer is trying to do is, like, become the future of work. So, like, we're obviously trying to make enough money to sustain itself as a business, but, like, there's this whole, like, part of the company that's, like, what does the future of work look like?
Speaker 2:You know? So I don't know. I mean, that's, like that doesn't have to mean that you come to Buffer, but I think that any company I think the future of companies is is something like that where we, like it sounds very, like, hippy dippy, but, like, you know, just, like, having this culture of, like, of that because I don't know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think that's such a good point. Like, that you articulated it so well. Because, like, my friends don't understand my problems at all. Like, for them, they're just, like, they're like, unless they're entrepreneurial, because then you kind of feel like, oh, I could go this way or this way or this way.
Speaker 1:But you're right. Like, tech gives us this this, in some ways, awful paradox of constant paradox of and FOMO all the time of going, I could stay or I could go do this and look at that person and look at what they're doing and look at that success. And you have this you I it's like I'm constantly in 10 parallel universes going, you know, well, if I'd gone that way Where
Speaker 2:would I be now? Yeah.
Speaker 1:I could've and and it it's like it's like a a road riddled with regret. Like, I have a friend who was basically at the first WW the first worldwide web consortium meeting. And, I mean and he he's had a great career in tech. Like, he worked for AltaVista. He worked for Yahoo.
Speaker 1:He's worked for Apple. Like, he's had an awesome, you know, run. But stuck in his head is that first
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Consortium meeting, the it was like nobody was there. And he said, like, out of that, like, if you chose the wrong he kinda has this feeling like if you chose the wrong people to have lunch with back then, it was the difference between becoming a millionaire or a billionaire or just being a working schmuck your whole life. And he thinks about it all the time. He's always like like, he he's like he remembers being at this one thing, and he's like, there's this one table, and he just remembers going, I wonder if I should, like, go and see what they're doing. Like, he wasn't really invited, but feeling like, I should just get myself in there, but he didn't.
Speaker 1:And that ended up being Mozilla and and Marc Andreessen and all those guys. And he's just like he thinks about that all the time. Just like
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Shit. Like, what if I just pushed myself in? Clearly, I mean, you can't think like that, but I think there's always this time, like, you could leave Buffer, and then, you know, the next year, they get acquired by Google, and all the employees are now millionaires. And then you're like, oh, why did I do that? Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know? It's there's these tensions all the time. And, yeah, I you're right. Like, this is a very in some ways, it's nice to hear it because then it's like, well, okay. You you have an abundance of options.
Speaker 1:Right? And some people just have no options. So just be thankful you've got options, you dummy. Like, that and maybe you choose wrong every single time, but at least you got that many like, some people get one at bat. It's like they go to school, they choose a trade, and they just hope that trade
Speaker 2:Hands up for yeah.
Speaker 1:Works out for the rest of their life. And in our case, it's like we get so many at bats that Yeah. You know, even if you decide to stay in the same career your whole life, just knowing that there's recruiters asking you, hey. You wanna work for us? You wanna work for us?
Speaker 1:It's like, that's a lot of opportunity.
Speaker 2:Well, it's I mean Yeah. It's so true. Yeah. It's so true. I think, like, I've never been to school.
Speaker 2:Like, these people spent, like, eight years of their life in school, and, like, I've no and it's and then they they make more money than I do. But the fact is, like, I, you know, I live down the street from them kinda thing. It's like I'm not, like, in the across the highway. You know, it's just like this weird feeling of, like, how did I get this? Like, oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:I I live in this world and this time when this is possible, you know?
Speaker 1:That is such a good way of looking at it because there's there's some gratitude in there. And, like, if I look at my life, like, I should be ruined, you know, quitting that when I'm 28 years old, which is like, really, your twenties are when you even to this day, like, if you don't establish yourself in your twenties, it is like it it's a big step back. And so I remember I'm almost 30, and I'm looking around and going, nobody wants to hire me. And I applied at the Apple Store, you know, and I got turned down. And I was just like, what is Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I'm ruined. Like, I'm never gonna and then I get one phone call, and then I'm working for a software company, and then all of a sudden, I've got options again. Like, that's incredible. And there is, I think, some gratitude of, like, oh, jeez, Justin. That so sad that you have that you're consider that you're you're sad that you might have to go and get a job.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The perspective. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Way way to go, Hamish. You're you're so sad. You have a great remote job. You get to sit in your Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:House. You know? But but it's it's perspective because the options and maybe these options won't last forever. Like, maybe you hit 58, and then no one's everyone's like, I'm not hiring a 58 year old right now. Like, maybe maybe your options wouldn't
Speaker 2:last forever. Then We're so young in this industry, it feels like. You know? Like
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think that's a a nice way of looking at it. The the gratitude of saying, okay. You've got a bunch of options.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's like there's, like, tears. So, like, you get to this point where you are like, you can take care of yourself and your family and your needs and all that, and and and like you're happy there. But then like these other things surface. So like, you know, like for example, like
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:My wife and I have been like focused more on like our mental health lately, you know. Like we have like she has like a therapist like she's seen, which is like kind of like a like a like a thing you can do when you have like the means to do that and you can actually think about those problems like, because that's a like that's a that's a big thing with taking care of your like mental health or like, you know, your physical health. Like we've been working out more like over the last like year and that's been good. Like, but those things, like, didn't happen when I was younger, and, like, I just wanted to, like, have a way to make ends meet. And, like, I couldn't think about that kind of stuff, you know?
Speaker 2:Like so Yeah. You can afford to have that, like, I want more because you maybe it's, like, maybe it's bad in the sense of in the moral sense bad, but I don't you know what I mean? But I just feels like you have to get to that point before that can happen.
Speaker 1:I think and I think this is why it's important to have gratitude and then to not throw away the good stuff. I mean, in retrospect, like, I just wanted to be independent so bad that I think I needed to experience that regardless. But the you know, I in in retrospect, it's like, man, I actually I could have gone and worked for Nathan and kept Mega Maker going and kept marketing for developers going, and it would have probably been
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:Better. You know? I think this idea of, like, okay. This is good, but what's missing? Okay.
Speaker 1:Well, what's missing is this. Now I could throw everything away and just pursue this, or I could keep what I have and just level up in Mhmm. Over here, especially if I think one of the things I felt before is I felt constrained. But if if you are not as constrained anymore, if you're like, no. Actually, I have a lot of freedom.
Speaker 1:I I I could just go and start speaking, or I could just go and start writing a book. Yeah. The the constraint of not being able to move is gone. It's like, oh, wait, I actually have movement here. Why not just stay here and, you know, go to something else?
Speaker 1:But there is tension to that because, like, sometimes you do gotta give everything up. And so knowing when to
Speaker 2:do that is hard. Can see to my mind, like, there's the the like, the manifesto of a maker, you know. And, like, I don't think it would be I don't think it would say you have to leave, you have to work only for yourself. You know, I think I don't think it would be that strict, you know. I think it's kinda it would somehow capture all things we're talking about here where it's like your situation is your own, and being a maker is like about finding that path for yourself where you're able to create in that world that you I mean, it's the space that you own.
Speaker 2:It's your life. It's your family. It's your needs, your wants, and, like, you know, it's it's it's so individually tailored. And then it almost begs the question of, like, why do we even I'll talk about it anyway if we can't relate to anyone. But somehow there's a part of it that connects all of us where we're like, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, I I can see that or I get that. And, know, some people can relate more than others. But, like, yeah, it's it's it somehow has we somehow have nothing we can relate on. We have everything we can relate on somehow at the same time. You know?
Speaker 1:Well and maybe what you're identifying is that we sometimes attach meaning to something that isn't even necessarily what we're going after. So we see people starting startups, and we say, oh, well, that's the way that you become completely fulfilled as someone who likes to make things with computers. But maybe not. Like, maybe it's just like, no. I can I can still be fulfilled?
Speaker 1:I can still be someone who likes to make things with computers. I can even be someone who makes things for the public and makes things for the public and makes money from them, but without having to start a company. Because you might start a company and be like, man, I wish I wish I hadn't done this. This is a nightmare. I think that's the danger of saying that's what I want.
Speaker 1:I want to be that person who is owns the startup. But when you really look down the list of everything that entails, it's like, maybe I don't want that. Maybe I just wanna be like Kent Dodge.
Speaker 2:Freaking love Kent. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, Kent Kent seems to love working at PayPal. And he's just like, I just happy working at PayPal, but he gets to make courses and sell them and be active in the JavaScript community. And he's completely Yeah. Fulfilled. You know?
Speaker 1:And in some ways, it's even better. It's like PayPal more than takes care of his needs. Pay Pal more than takes care of his desire for, for purpose and for learning new things and for making work that matters. And then on the other on the other side, he gets to engage with the community. He gets he gets to have his cake and eat it too.
Speaker 1:Again, there's I don't think there's that many great companies to work for.
Speaker 2:But Totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah. If you're in that if you're in that position where there's a great company and you're working for them, maybe it's just like, okay. My bases are set, and I'm gonna go do this other thing on the side that I really have no pressure or expectation for it to become my next big thing. I might have to cut some of this up, like, release this as a podcast because I feel like after in our after chat here, we've kinda nailed some stuff that is a lot of folks could
Speaker 2:resonate with. Yeah. I'm cool with that. That'd be sweet.
Speaker 1:So there you go. A little bit of Thanksgiving holiday listening. If you enjoyed that or you wanna reach out, you can reach out to me on Twitter. I'm the letter m, the letter I, Justin, m I Justin. And Hamish is Hamstu, h a m s t u.
Speaker 1:And if you're listening to this before Cyber Monday, go check out megamaker.co/blackfriday. And, also, if you wanna join the the membership site that we were talking about, megamaker.co/club is the place to sign up for the waiting list.
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