Episode 78
· 31:09
Hey, folks. I'm doing a contest on my other podcast, megamaker.co, that I think you will like. You can win an hour with Pelti, the founder of Balsamiq. To enter, you just need to go to megamaker.co/dreamsmall. So I'm here at MicroConf in Las Vegas.
Speaker 1:This is that conference I was telling you about. It's for self funded startups. And, you might hear my voice is a little bit raspy from all of the late nights and hanging out, And there's been some amazing talks. But I think my favorite part has been meeting people that listen to this show or my other show Mega Maker. And I just wanted to maybe give a shout out to some of them because that's kind of fun when you're listening and you hear your name.
Speaker 1:So Leticia at optimized player dot com. Steve Franco at bettercater.com. Ryan Benick and Ward Sandler at my member space dot com. So thanks to you guys for listening, and it was really great meeting you at the conference. This is part two of my conversation with Nathan Barry.
Speaker 1:If you haven't listened to part one, go listen to that. Otherwise, listen on.
Speaker 2:Well, I have to say, I got made fun of a lot in the software circles for the email marketing for professional bloggers. People are like, seriously, when are you gonna target real companies? When are you gonna target, you know
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Software companies or small to medium businesses or like you'll never build a business there. But the thing is vloggers are better at building email lists than anyone else on the planet. Mhmm. Like a SaaS company that's doing well with their marketing. Say they've got 10 employees.
Speaker 2:Well, let's use Convertkit as an example.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We have 20,000 subscribers on our ConvertKit email list. Wow. A professional blogger is gonna look at that and go, yeah, I have a 100,000.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. And they're gonna
Speaker 2:grow so much faster because they are the absolute best in the world at growing email lists, growing audiences. And so guess what? Every new subscriber that we that, you know, you add your ConvertKit account, we make more money off of. So we make a significant amount of money off of account upgrades. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Whereas someone targeting software companies, they're not gonna make the same level of money off of off of account upgrades because their their customers just aren't growing as fast. Yeah. The other thing is the referral side of things. Bloggers talk about what they use and everyone copies other bloggers. And affiliates are a huge deal in the blogging space.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And it's really common. So people always ask like, oh, your affiliate program's been working really well. I wanna replicate it over in whatever other space. And I'm like, the culture is not of an affiliate program is not there in that other industry.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a huge thing because you can start a company or a product, and you feel like the product's great, there's demand for it, but there's these other kind of tangibles that you don't think about. One of which is how hard is it to convince someone to put in their credit card? And there's so many products where you they have to talk to five people just to put in the credit card once.
Speaker 1:Whereas if you're just targeting this one individual who's building their own business, it's so much easier for them to just be like, okay. Well, I'll just put my credit card in. I don't have to talk to anybody. I'll just do it. And, obviously, the maybe the disadvantage is, like you said, it might be a little bit softer on the retention side.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Maybe. In your
Speaker 2:case On the low end, it absolutely is.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like,
Speaker 2:the churn on our $29 a month plan is obnoxiously high.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So now let's go okay. So let's go back.
Speaker 1:We're gonna we're now we're at the stage of building from 1,000,000 to 2,000,000.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And like I said when I opened, I know a lot of companies that just stay at a million forever. They hit that plateau. So did you do anything different from a million to 2,000,000, and how the hell did you do it in ninety days?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I remember I was following along with customer.i0 and their journey because they wrote a blog post back in 02/2013, I think, about basically, they grew from, like, 2,500 a month to 50,000 a month in twelve months. And it's a great post. Go back and read it. And when I asked Colin about it, I was like, what's your biggest acquisition channel?
Speaker 2:And he's like, oh, word-of-mouth. I'm like, at the time I thought, yeah, bullshit. Like, you know, how can that be an acquisition channel? Because we had nothing coming from word-of-mouth. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Turns out, if you don't have customers, you can't have word-of-mouth referrals. And so what it came down to is the direct sales is what kickstarts the word-of-mouth. And so we hustled really hard up to say 25,000 a month in revenue. And then from 25,000 to 83,000, which is the 1,000,000 in run rate, there was a lot of direct sales, but there was also partnerships where we did some larger webinars. We'd gotten the influence and enough of the buzz that some of these bigger bloggers would do a webinar with us, and we might pick up 25 up to a 100 accounts from doing one of these webinars.
Speaker 2:And then, you know, and so the word-of-mouth and the affiliate stuff is starting to kick in there. From, you know, going forward from the 1,000,000 to 2,000,000, that is really emphasizing the partnerships and the webinars. And we still do the direct sales, but now it's only a third of what we do. Whereas affiliates and, you know, just word-of-mouth referrals would make up the other two thirds. So that gets easier and easier.
Speaker 2:We've noticed a phenomenon where ConvertKit organically infects more and more of these Facebook groups. Where there's a Facebook group run by some blogger, it's got 2,500 members and they're all talking about you know, the business of blogging and sharing tactics. And someone goes, hey, have you guys checked out ConvertKit? And someone else is like, yeah, I haven't. And then before you know it, everyone in that group is talking about ConvertKit and someone asks us to like come and do a little training for that group.
Speaker 2:And so we show up and answer questions. So now the spread is much more organic, but it took a lot of work to, like, get that ball rolling.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And and so you said a third is, like, webinars.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And Any any of the we we wrote a lot I had people write a lot of, like, ConvertKit versus Mailchimp or ConvertKit, you know, what they thought of ConvertKit
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Reviews. So we gave anyone who did that a month free. Gotcha. Yep. And so that's you know, we went from having like five reviews of ConvertKit written on the web to having like 50 in the course of a couple weeks.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I I count anything affiliate related where we're paying out a commission into one category. That's probably a third of our revenue.
Speaker 1:So there really was a tipping point where all that work you'd done kinda built up to this point where now there is like this ball rolling. Right? Like, there's this machine kinda going now. I what what surprises me is that it was so quick. Like, ninety days just seems very, very quick to double revenue.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Well, we're gonna do it again in probably I mean, our goal is to do it in less than seventy five days to go to get to the next million in revenue. Wow. We might we might be able do it even faster. I mean, we did a webinar.
Speaker 2:This hasn't even shown up in our numbers yet because it was all first month free trials. Yeah. We did a webinar with Pat Flynn and picked up seven fifty new accounts. Wow. And so I'm eagerly awaiting.
Speaker 2:It was all on a first month free. So we don't message it as a trial or anything like that. We just message it as like, if you sign up today, we'll give you your first month free. Yeah. And so, April 12 or whatever, somewhere in there, those will all kick in on bare metrics.
Speaker 2:It's like $20 in recurring revenue that we picked up from two webinars.
Speaker 1:And so Pat did that so he could get the affiliate revenue. Is that Yeah. The deal?
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah. So ConvertKit now pays for his Tesla. So
Speaker 1:so so those partnerships are important too, obviously, that that having someone with that big of an audience that can that can do that. And and you don't see it slowing down. Like, the this the momentum, including churn is Mhmm. So because the other thing is you don't have much data yet. You the you've got you know, most of these people are still, six months they've been around for six months or eight months?
Speaker 1:Or
Speaker 2:Or two.
Speaker 1:Or two. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's so many people that I I don't remember the exact numbers. We closed out the end of last year well below 2,000 customers, and it won't, you know, it won't be long before we pass 4,000. If you include our our active trials and everything, we're well over 4,000 right now. Yeah. And so you gotta think just how many people have been with us for, you know, sixty days or less.
Speaker 2:So you're right. The data is hard to know. Like, calculating lifetime value and stuff like that, I'm like, man, I don't even know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Does that worry you at all? Like, do you feel like there any of this could be softer, or do you feel like, no. This seems solid.
Speaker 2:Our churn has been higher than I would like. We've been having trouble getting some new accounts onboarded and stuff like that. Mhmm. And, you know, we had some scaling issues with customer support about a month ago where we were just getting crushed and not handling it well. And but since we've gotten that under control, churn is trending downwards again, and so I feel good about that.
Speaker 2:Quite frankly, the amount of growth that we have I mean, we're able to add $30,000 in new revenue every month after churn. And that's after some pretty high churn numbers because in January and February, had 10% churn, which is painfully high. Yeah. But if we're able to add $30,000 in revenue after a 10% churn Yeah. And our customer base that's referring new customers is just getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
Speaker 2:And there's still the vast majority of bloggers have never even heard of us. They don't even know we exist. Yeah. And so I look at these other companies. Mailchimp's got 450 employees.
Speaker 2:Yep. They're doing some pretty good revenue. Aweber has a 120 employees. They're doing between 50 and 75,000,000 a year in revenue. I'll take some more of their customers.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Campaign Monitor just raised 250,000,000, you know, last year and a half ago at over a billion dollar valuation. Yeah. I'll take some of their customers. You know, I can Mad Mimi is a tiny player and they sold the GoDaddy for 45,000,000. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, I just I see the game differently now. We and before, you know, the the goal a few years ago the goal a year and a half ago was like, alright. Let's build a nice business up to 50 k a month in revenue and then eventually we can get it to a 100 k, that would be amazing. Yeah. And now we're looking at, okay, what does it take to get to 10,000,000 a year in revenue, and then 50,000,000 a year in revenue and beyond?
Speaker 1:Yeah. And so the other thing that doesn't get talked about very much is profit. Mhmm. And I think I read in your yearly review that you something about profit. I can't remember what it was now.
Speaker 1:So
Speaker 2:what There wasn't any?
Speaker 1:Yeah. What can you tell us about profit?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So this has been taking up a lot of my time and energy over the last few months. Because if you had told me that if you told me when we were making $5 a month in revenue, that at $50 a month in revenue, we would have a profit margin of $2,000 a month, I would be like, no way. We'll figure out a way to, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But that's how it ended up. And a lot of it was because of the rapid growth. We had with the growth curve, and I can share, you know, send you some screenshots later or something that like the growth growth curve is ridiculous. But to keep up with that, we had to spend so much money on hiring. And, I mean, we had four people in October, four full time people in October.
Speaker 2:By January 1, we had four 14 full time people. Wow. You have
Speaker 1:you have 14 full time people right now?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, man. You're you don't you just feel like all this weight? Like, all the
Speaker 2:or or you just I I I used to. So we were running, you know, I think in December we put up a $5,000 profit on 80 no. On $95,000 in revenue, we did a $5,000 profit. Mhmm. In January, we actually lost $15,000.
Speaker 2:Why? But I made a stupid mistake and forgot to pay the credit card bill in December. And I thought that I had it and I budgeted accordingly.
Speaker 1:Gotcha.
Speaker 2:And then I overspent in a couple other areas. I was actually thought we were gonna put up profit in January and we we did not. So we're spending really quickly, but in general, with the exception of January, we've always put up profit
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Say for the last six months. But if you have $10,000 in the bank and you're spending $10,000 a month, like, that's not bad. You're you've got a month of runway and you have the world's most predictable revenue stream and no customer makes up, you know, a very big percentage of revenue. Yeah. So it's not that bad.
Speaker 2:But then as revenue grows and you're adding to that, you know, now we'll say you've got $25,000 a month in revenue, dollars 24,000 a month in expenses, and $15,000 in the bank. Like your bank account is bigger, that's great. Yeah. But now you've got, what is that? Seventeen days worth of expenses?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so I watched our bank account grow, but our expenses grow so much faster that that got really scary. And I just didn't see it changing. Like, we were having to spend so much on servers and hiring more people on the support team and all of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was getting really hard. Even to the point where February, was like, crap, how do we do this? We're down to we're spending a 100 and just over a $100,000 a month in expenses, like $110,000 Wow. And we had $50,000 in the bank.
Speaker 1:Wow. And this is just two months ago.
Speaker 2:This is two months ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it wasn't getting more efficient. And our support team is saying, hey, we need to hire a lot more people. You know, if we're gonna continue adding 800 to a thousand customers a month, we need probably to add a support person every single month at least. Wow. And so that was freaking me out.
Speaker 2:And I was looking at like and other founders were like, oh, this is a good problem to have. I'm like, man, it's a problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally.
Speaker 2:And and so I was looking at raising money because I talked to other founders like Clay Collins from Leadpages.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Never needed to raise the money that they did, but it was for this exact problem. They're growing so fast, reinvesting everything that it was just purely a cash in the bank problem. And he said, would sleep way easier at night if I had $5,000,000 sitting in that bank account. Yeah. And so I started to go down that road of raising money.
Speaker 2:I actually had a conversation with Mike McDermott, the CEO of FreshBooks.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I ran into him at a conference in San Francisco and I was like, you've bootstrapped to 200 employees. You have encountered this problem, you
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:And so I talked to him and he just outlined it. He was like, Okay, so let me get straight. You're adding almost 30 ks a month in new revenue. Expenses are growing right with it. You have no cash in the bank.
Speaker 2:And he just said, what would it take to be super disciplined for a few months? Like, if you do that and, like, grow expenses just barely. Yeah. Could you do that? And then what would happen?
Speaker 2:And I wasn't sure.
Speaker 1:But then His his his point being, if you just give yourself some buffer, you'll have some money in the bank, and you'll sleep better.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Okay. And and that you should be able to save your way out of this problem. If you could just rein in expenses and not grow expenses with revenue and figure out a way to do that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know?
Speaker 1:And are you paying yourself at this point?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I pay myself a salary of $63,000 a year.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So I am, like, middle of the pack, a low end, low low. I'm one of the lower paid employees in my company. Yeah. But so I looked at that and I thought, okay. Might be possible.
Speaker 2:But our support team was still buried. We ended up I had to let go of someone on my support team, which is hard. But then I ended up restructuring the way we did support, and that we ended up supporting far more customers with much better response times with a smaller team. Okay. And that's when things flipped where I went, wait.
Speaker 2:We can get way more efficient here. We don't have to be drowning. We can accomplish what we need to with a smaller team than we had before.
Speaker 1:How did you do that? Because you make it sound easy. You make it sound like, well, I just, you know, restructured it. So I moved the desks around.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 1:I put a light bulb over their head, and all of a sudden, they were they were working harder.
Speaker 2:So we did two things. One, we focused a lot of the development team, because we have five full time developers, on helping the customer support team. So the customer support team went through and said, these are the 10 support tickets that we never wanna see again. So the development team went, alright, how can we use engineering to make sure that that particular thing, whether it's adding help text or fixing this bug or whatever it is, can I make that that question never comes in again? The other thing that I did is I switched everything to be very metrics driven.
Speaker 2:So the whole team was we were all feeling like we're drowning under this load of support. Mhmm. And so I mapped out as best I could. I've made a bunch of spreadsheets and like graphed out how things were increasing over time to say that, look, the support load is not increasing at the rate. It's not increasing linearly with the number of customers.
Speaker 2:Like, it's slower than that. Yeah. And so I proved through numbers that it was a solvable problem, and that changed the messaging. So we went from feeling like we're buried and we're net we'll never get out of this until we hire more people Mhmm. To a mindset shift of we can do this and here's how.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And we went from having twenty four hour response twenty four to thirty six hour response times and a queue of 250 active support tickets. So within a couple days, we've gotten that down to two hour response times and maintaining an average queue of, like, 30 tickets in the in the queue. Wow. And the biggest shift and I still don't fully know what to attribute this to, but I asked everyone I, like, d DM'd everyone on my team in in Slack and was like, so what changed?
Speaker 2:Because I had this whole plan to get us there by April 1.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And they like got
Speaker 2:us there within two days. And I was like, okay. So what changed? And they just said like, look, you showed us how it was possible. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It went from this insurmountable problem to, okay. This is possible. We can do it.
Speaker 1:They just
Speaker 2:And so
Speaker 1:they did. They just didn't have hope. They they were down in the trenches. They couldn't see above the trenches. You were able to go in and say, okay.
Speaker 1:Here's here's a better way to do this.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So exactly. So bringing that back to profit, we went from barely breaking even to in January we put up or in in February we ended up putting up a $40,000 profit. Wow. And then in February or in sorry.
Speaker 2:In March, we should put up a a 55 to $60,000 profit.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. So so you're sleeping better now.
Speaker 2:I am. Now we're not spending any of this money because we set a very aggressive goal to get to three months of revenue or three months of expenses in the bank by July 1. Mhmm. And so I made a spreadsheet of because revenue or expenses have to keep increasing. Yeah.
Speaker 2:The Stripe processing bill, the email sending, you know, sending 50,000,000 emails a month that turns out is not cheap. Yeah. You know, Heroku and Amazon, I'm just like, damn it, did that really just go up by another $500 this month?
Speaker 1:Or Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You add 500 or thousand dollars to each of these categories, and I'm like, oh, man.
Speaker 1:And this is gonna be increasingly this is going to be your role is tweaking these little things. Like, you you're gonna have to go in like, you you talked about a people problem you had where you said, okay. Here's the people problem. Everyone feels buried. They're discouraged.
Speaker 1:They they just need a way out of this. And the only way they can see is get someone in here in the trenches helping me dig this this this trench. So you solved that one, but now there's infrastructure ones too. Like, now you're thinking, when do we build our own servers? When do we start when do we bring this part in house?
Speaker 1:Like, that's gonna be your job going forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And those costs don't increase linearly with revenue. And so I mapped out how they've been increasing, how revenue has been increasing. And so those become less of a problem over time. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But basically, we're aggressively saving towards effectively, we need $450,000 of cash in the bank Yeah. July 1 to to have that should equal three months of our projected expenses at that time. Yeah. And then after that, you know, there will be some raises and some bonuses and but we're gonna keep that as a rule where we have to have at least three months of cash to the bank minimum.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think I'm trying to remember what Pelty's was. I mean, they're they've been very aggressive on that. I I think they have eighteen months. But that's kinda what you have to do.
Speaker 1:Like, even though you're bringing in all the money, you you wanna have some sort of buffer there to to deal with stuff. So yeah. That and it it sounds like the team is with you. Like, they're saying, yes. We're gonna achieve this.
Speaker 1:We're gonna get to this goal. And, you know, after that, there can be, like you said, other things. But
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it's been it's been a good benchmark to point things against because people are saying, I'd like to spend money on, you know, all the different things that we could. And we keep pointing back to like, well, we have this aggressive goal. We're working towards it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, know, I see a clear path to us being profitable to the tune of a $100,000 a month. And we'll be there this year, you know, so long as nothing terrible goes wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's insane. One thing, we're gonna end pretty soon here, but, Ashley says this is a bit of a tangent, but she wants to know how your lifestyle has changed from solopreneur to hiring staff, managing a software company. She says, you make it sound easy, but managing staff would be so stressful and take up more and even, like like like, you know, a little bit about how it affects your family and your wife and, you know, all that stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So there was a solid year in there that was super stressful. We as an individual, I completely ran out of money. I went back to the bank to try to I used to have a bunch of money with Wells Fargo, they would always every time I'd go in, they'd be like, hey, do you want a $100,000 line of credit? I'd be like, no, what would I ever use that for?
Speaker 2:And then June, I found myself back in Wells Fargo saying, hey, that line of credit that you guys always offered me, I'll take it now. And they went, what's your what's that bank balance? Yeah. Sorry. It's not available anymore.
Speaker 2:Wow. So there were some rough times in there. I had to lay somebody off for a few months. You know, we we drained all of our savings, everything like that. Because I was totally focused with a few exceptions on ConvertKit and not on the training business or any of that.
Speaker 2:Cause I saw progress so I didn't wanna do other things. Mhmm. So money stuff definitely stressed me out. My wife was hugely supportive throughout the whole thing where early on when we were deciding should we invest our last 50,000 into ConvertKit, she had kinda outlined, well what's the worst thing that could happen? And she started talking about that and she said, you know, like we could sell the house that we just bought and put $80,000 into remodeling, you know.
Speaker 2:And then she suggested, you know, like, if we need a place to stay, can move in with her parents. And and she outlined that worst case scenario and was okay with
Speaker 1:it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I was like, that's not the worst case scenario. The worst case scenario is I'll get a consulting job and, like, you're fine. Yeah. So having someone else who painted a a worse scenario and was okay with that made it easier for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But the last the last few months have been much easier and more fun. You know, the the team thing is hard. There's managing all that stress is hard. Mhmm. I was thinking about I listen to Tim Ferriss's podcast, and he has this question that he asks.
Speaker 2:And it's it's something like, what's the one purchase that you made in the last six months for $100 or less that has had a meaningful impact on your life? Yeah. If I were ever asked that question, my answer would be therapy. Like regular visits to a counselor to just talk through you know, health and all the stress and family things and trying to grow a company with, you know, when you have two little kids in the house too
Speaker 1:and trying
Speaker 2:to be a dad and all that. Like, it's money very, very well spent. So it's it's definitely been hard. But now now I'm having the time of my life. Yeah.
Speaker 2:This is so much fun. I get to do all the activities that I want. I don't stress out about money in the same way. And I and I just see like, I don't know, like this wide open freeway of potential towards, you know, we're we're pushing for $500,000 a month in revenue by the end of this year, and then we'll see where it goes from there.
Speaker 1:So see where it goes from there. Well, I am really enjoying just watching from the sidelines. And actually now even having you color in some of those details is well, it's fascinating, but it's also just makes me yeah. I keep wanna I wanna keep cheering for you because I think it's great.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I just so proud of you and all this all the success and getting through that hard stuff because it sounded you know, that that was really hard. So thanks for spending the this hour with me, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Absolutely. Happy to talk anytime.
Speaker 1:Cool, man. Well, best of luck. We'll talk again soon.
Speaker 2:Thanks.
Speaker 1:Okay. Bye. Just listening through that interview again, it's clear that if you want to build a software company, there is going to be a lot of struggle along the way. And every person I talk to, it's the it's the same thing. The journey is always different, first of all.
Speaker 1:You can't really follow someone else's success to your own success. And second of all, there's always these moments where it felt like they had no hope. And Nathan, for Nathan that was running out of money and being in under all this stress and that stress can feel so heavy when you're in the midst of it. It can feel like just everything, every single thing in your life is weighing down on you. And then you have these moments where you kind of break out of it.
Speaker 1:And for Nathan, that's what happened. He was able to get through it with some good advice. Community always seems to be the answer. Good relationships, you know, his conversation with Mike is really what helped him turn his situation at ConvertKit around. Thanks again, Nathan for being on the show.
Speaker 1:Like I mentioned last week, you can get $10 off Balsamic mock ups. It's the best mock up and prototyping tool I've used. $10 off if you use the code MEGA Maker, all one word, MEGA Maker. That expires May 1. Go to balsamic.com and get $10 off.
Speaker 1:They rarely do deals, and this is a really good one. So, mega maker balsamic.com. And, that's it folks. I I think I'm planning on releasing a few more episodes in the coming months, so stay tuned to the feed. And if you wanna follow me on Twitter and see the other things I'm working on, I'm the letter m, the letter I, Justin.
Speaker 1:That's m I Justin. Thanks again. And also thanks to MicroConf for having me. And to Xander, Mike Taber, and Rob Walling for hosting the conference. Talk to you later.
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