Episode 57
· 39:20
Alright. Happy Thursday, product people. It's Justin Jackson here. Welcome to the show. I told you I'd be back every Thursday, didn't I?
Speaker 1:Publishing this one a little bit late on Thursday, but that's okay. That's okay. How am I doing? I'm doing pretty good. How are you doing?
Speaker 1:You feeling okay? Hope you're finding some time to work on your own projects and get stuff done. By the way, if you're working on something cool, I'd love to hear about it. Get me on Twitter at m I justin. A lot of people interested in my new project, productpeople.club.
Speaker 1:Go there. Sign up for the waiting list. I think I'm gonna post a screenshot today of kinda what's gonna what's in the pipes for productpeople.club. What else? Going to Edmonton soon.
Speaker 1:Gonna make the drive down with the fam, or should I say up? It's north from where I am. Big twelve hour drive. Six people in a minivan. It is gonna be a good time.
Speaker 1:Here's the stats from last year's trip. Let's see. We had three kids throw up, two bleeding noses, and one speeding ticket. So I'm hoping I can beat those stats this year. We'll see.
Speaker 1:I'll let you guys know how it works out. Once again, Stryker, one of my favorite bands providing music for the show. This is Fight For Your Life. Let's go talk with Brennan Dunn. Great guy to talk to, especially if you're looking at how to market your product, how to build something people actually want.
Speaker 1:Alright. Let's go. Let's get into the show.
Speaker 2:Justin Jackson here and I'm live with Brennan Dunn. Brennan runs Planscope at planscope.io and doubleyourfreelancingrate.com. He's essentially living the dream, aren't you Brennan?
Speaker 3:Depends on the day, but yeah,
Speaker 2:I'm trying to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've got, It's definitely getting better. Been a few bumps in the road regarding personal stuff, family stuff, but otherwise, the amazing part has been that I literally took six weeks off and business still sold stuff, which is great.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, let's start with that actually. I think who was I just talking to you about this? The oh, I was talking to Garrett Diamond about this. I was saying, What are the biggest misconceptions people have when it comes to your world and what it's really like running your business?
Speaker 2:He said running a SaaS business is way harder than people think. It's a lot more work. It's a lot more customer support. And but he also said, you know, he's had like he's had some hard health issues this year too. And, he said things basically kept running while he was going.
Speaker 2:It dipped a little bit but that was the advantage is that he had this stuff on the other side. But he definitely says it's a lot harder to run a product business than people might think.
Speaker 3:It depends. I've got my books, right? Double your freelancing rate has been out two years. I literally put zero effort each month into that and it still does 2,000 a month. So that's kind of the ideal.
Speaker 3:I mean people say there's no such thing as passive income. That's true to a degree. However if you have enough stuff and enough glue between it all, right? Like I've got my newsletter and my blog and all that. You know I'll eventually tie in to my different products.
Speaker 3:It is kind of passive in that respect. But yeah, with a blog, or not a blog, with a SaaS, I think the issue is it just takes time to actually make a dent in your finances. It takes so long for a typical SaaS to get to the point where it can actually be meaningful in your income. Yeah. So that's actually what led me to doing a lot of these other products is that I did what I think a lot of, especially consultants do, that's like, okay I'm switching off consulting.
Speaker 3:I'm not gonna have clients anywhere. I'm gonna do products. And then you realize like, well I still need to pay the bills. Know, I'm making like okay 400 a month or something, great. But you know, I need to add a zero or two or something to that.
Speaker 3:And so, yeah. So I use products as a way to kind of create additional revenue channels. But what's been cool is that all this stuff I've built has reinforced like PlanScoping the other stuff. So it's been a cool journey. It's been really cool just being able to Consultants are my thing.
Speaker 3:That's my audience I guess. Freelancers and consultants. Yeah. And like all of my products touch on a different part of consulting. And there's really good overlap.
Speaker 3:So I'm happy that I kind of made that decision. That's something I would recommend to anyone starting out. Don't do it, don't pull up Patrick McKenzie and sell to teachers and plumbers and SaaS operators. It's too hard to sell them, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And this has been a reoccurring theme and so I'm gonna ask you this as well. First of all, who should you start with? And maybe we can help relieve some of the anxiety that people have around who they should focus on. And then second, what kind of products should you build your first time around?
Speaker 2:Should you build a full time SaaS or what should you do? So let's start with audience first. What kind of people should you focus on?
Speaker 3:Ideally I think you should focus on people that you know a lot about. Don't say I'm gonna build a lawyer law firm management app when you know nothing about law stuff. Think it's easier to find whether it's domains that you've had experience in. Like if you've worked in Like let's say you've had a lot of clients or you worked in a job that involved Case in point. So one of my earliest jobs is I worked as a designer or designer slash developer for a company that did lead generation for mortgage brokers and real estate agents.
Speaker 3:So I learned a lot about leads and lead gen and all that kind of stuff doing that. So when I left that I started my little first startup which we generated mortgage leads and we sold them. And I got that experience from having worked in that industry. So I think it's a lot, you're definitely gonna have a heads up if you know the industry, you know it well and you're a member of the audience ideally. I mean I wasn't a member of a mortgage broker audience per se but I knew enough about what they needed and just from that exposure.
Speaker 3:So I definitely think stay close, stick to, know in my case I'm selling to consultants but I am and was a consultant for many many years. So it's been easier for me because I'm able to produce content that they like because it's, you know, I have credentials to talk on certain subjects.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But on top of that, I know first hand kind of like the themes that they have. That's So been helpful too.
Speaker 2:Well and this is, there's a little bit of a range here, right? Like on one side we could say, you know there's some people that say like stay as close to the metal as you can. If you are a consultant, sell to consultants. And then the next step is maybe you've been a consultant but you've been selling to I'm trying to think of a good example that's not too crazy. You've been selling to insurance salesmen your whole life so you know a lot about that industry.
Speaker 2:So would you say that it's okay to be in this group right here?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would. The only issue I think is usually it's easier to sell to people who know how to I would struggle selling to insurance salesmen because I don't really know how to acquire them or where they loiter, guess. Right? That could involve higher touch offline sales, which is probably what would need to happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And that's totally doable if you're okay with that. The thing I like about what I'm doing now is I know I have a lot of these predictable acquisition channels that I can tap into that don't require me to go and hang out at insurance conferences or something, you know? Yeah. But I But I wouldn't write it off. A really good example of this is Matt Wencing, who runs RiskPulse, which was StormPulse.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It like I mean it's a really cool product but he's selling to like people who run like FedEx and like asset management companies, right? So he knew enough about like asset tracking and weather stuff because that was his hobby, like the weather aspects and risk. But he's able, but you know, ask him. I mean he's got sales people, right, who work for him because to get a client like that or a customer like that, you need to do the kind of like the higher touch.
Speaker 3:So it depends on what you wanna do, I think. It depends on how high touch, how offline you might wanna get. Like if you wanna say like, dentists have the crappy software, I'm gonna build new dental software. Dentists are not typically googling around for dental software, right? To get in there you're gonna need to knock on their door, do a presentation and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:That's one of the misconceptions I see is a lot of developers were I can't believe my auto mechanic uses this crappy 1980 style terminal thing to do stuff, right? I could build something in a weekend in Rails that would be so much better. But we don't realize that. It's not that easy. It's not about the product, it's about getting it in their hands.
Speaker 3:If you don't know how to get it in their hands, it's gonna be an uphill battle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you need a path to market. I think that's the one thing, because I get a lot of emails from people saying well what about this idea? Like what about this market? And you've kind of identified I think three things. One is how well do you know it?
Speaker 2:Like can you speak with authority about the subject? Two, do you even like these people because you're going to be you're literally going to be helping these people forever. I think about Alan Branch quite a bit with this with less accounting. So like a big part of his day is he has to hang out with accountants. And obviously he's okay with that, he's made that choice, you have to think like he hangs out with accountants a lot.
Speaker 2:Like he's going to conferences.
Speaker 3:Like he goes to accountant conferences, like for CPAs and stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you have to think, like you have to be able to visualize yourself hanging out with these people and you know, it's actually funny that like real estate agents and like people always want to build products for real estate agents and other things. But you have to like imagine like do you want to go to real estate agent conferences and hang out all day? So that was number two. And then the third thing you said is how easy is it to reach them?
Speaker 3:And
Speaker 2:I think that's a big thing. Work in my day job, I work in kind of enterprise communications and our biggest challenge is finding out where those people hang out, Like where can you find them? There's no identifiable group of them online.
Speaker 3:Right. And that's the issue. I can find freelancers more or less pretty easily online because they tend to Google for like how do I raise my rate or how do I get clients like they're web workers, right? So they use the web to do stuff. You know, it's a little harder for certain audiences.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And the other thing we didn't mention, but you mentioned in the last interview you and I did and I want to say this again, this is one of my favorite quotes. You said, Listen to what people who have a financial interest are complaining about. What did you mean by that when you said that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, mean so you wanna find preexisting cash flow, I think. So you wanna find like, you wanna tap into like things that are actually affecting somebody's bottom line, right? So one of the misconceptions, go back to my dental software example, does the dentist really think they're losing money by having crappy software? Right? Like do they really, do they know that?
Speaker 3:Maybe you think, you're coming from like a UX perspective, but you know, they're like well, it's like habit. I just hit the right stroke, you know, whatever of keys in a row and it does what I need. Yeah. So like, I mean you really need to tap into You need to tap into core needs that aren't being fulfilled with whatever current workflows exist. So like a great example would be you have an office of insurance sales people and they're emailing spreadsheets back and forth to each other all day, right?
Speaker 3:Like that is, they're losing money because they're wasting time on and there's hourly rate I guess for like you know, their time. So if you can tap into that, well you know these workflows are costing you money and here's why and here's why I think you should look at what we're doing. Or the better alternative which is always I can make you more money and you show them how like, hey, wouldn't it be cool if we could automatically qualify your inbound leads through, by conditioning them over time through email courses or drip campaigns or something. Which is something like most SMBs know nothing about. And you know, you come in and say, hey I've got this little thing that, you know, you're a, mean, case in point, like if you go back to Patrick, he's got this thing that reminds patients of like clinics and massage pillings or whatever they come in.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's a way so the paying company, the people who are paying for his software make more money. And he focuses on that, not focuses on like, hey we'll text people for you. Right? Like that's not the focus.
Speaker 3:That's the feature but it's not the benefit. So you know, where are people hemorrhaging money and where are people losing out on potential opportunities and sell that. Don't sell this product.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And that just made me think of a lot of times I think developers, they've asked me like they're basically saying like, How do I figure out what people need? And I think it's partly because they think of the world a little bit differently. Creative people sometimes we're thinking of the world as like, Oh I could improve this user experience or I could improve this backend or I could improve the way this looks, I could improve the way this functions or I could gather all this data. Like there's all these kind of interesting things to us that are like, man,
Speaker 1:I just like want to do that
Speaker 2:because it's interesting. But one of the easiest ways to find out how to build a business is to look around your office and just think, how could I make them more money? Like that question alone is super, super helpful.
Speaker 3:Well that's easy to sell anything too. Like who wouldn't pay a dollar to get two back, right? Yeah. Why wouldn't you? So if you can figure that out and tap into that vein, that's all you sell.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I
Speaker 3:mean that's on the B2B context, Right? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah and I think that there might even be I think the bar does not have to be super high for that either. Like we're kind of going around this topic of start with a small product first and you know, you could build, like let's take our insurance salesman's example. I know nothing about insurance sales. But if you could build a really simple interactive product that generated leads for insurance people. So like, take this thing to assess your you know, how much insurance you need and, you know, whatever, and then it gives the insurance people a list of those leads.
Speaker 2:That's not complicated software, but has a lot of value to insurance salesmen.
Speaker 3:And I wouldn't even start with line of code. What I would do is A good example of this is actually, I had a conversation with a local here about a year ago who wanted to do this thing where I don't like automatically send your mom and relatives and stuff like gifts on their birthday, right? So you just get them your card and you say, okay, on Mother's Day send my mom this bouquet of flowers, and then on her birthday send this, and so on. It's like a set in thing. And he was like, well, what framework should I use in?
Speaker 3:Should I use Ruby or should I use Python? Know, all this stuff. And I'm like, what you wanna do at first is you have a spreadsheet and you sell people and when somebody says, Hey, my mom's birthday is October 15 and I wanna send her this. You go into your calendar and you add an entry for October 15 and you say find the credit card for this guy and buy this and send it here. And you sell it to identify that I guess that's the whole lean model or whatever, right?
Speaker 3:But it's true because like until there's that cash flow that people are like, you know what, remembering this shit is a big enough pain that I will pay you an overhead to do this on my behalf.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But even go back a little further about like, do you even start with a software product? I would start with And then people say like, well I wanna write a book. Right? And the best thing that I would recommend anyone who has that idea is, is do like a webinar first. Because webinars don't require nearly the prep time.
Speaker 3:They don't require the shooting in the dark element that writing a book has. And on top of that, it's conversational. Yeah, it's a little less structured, it's smaller, whatever. But, you know, if you can say, hey, an authority on this subject and I'm gonna come and let's talk and go to webinar for an hour and I will present something. You do that, you have some sort of bidirectional feedback mechanism, you learn from that and then you further flush that out into something more transactional.
Speaker 3:So I did a workshop on recurring revenue that I've done twice now. And now I'm at the point where I'm taking like the Like the first one was kind of like the shot in the dark. I don't really know what people wanna know so I'm gonna host this and it's like, yes I have content and curriculum but it's more or less like an ask me anything element too. Yeah. The second one is much more refined because I had that initial feedback loop.
Speaker 3:Then I could then refine what I was teaching and you know, make it a little more cohesive. And now that one was recorded and now it's gonna be I've got an editor who's just making it nice and it's gonna be a downloadable product, right? So, like I didn't say, I'm gonna record this video course in my office. Know, I started with that and then that worked its way down into something more transactional. We all want the wake up and there is money being sent to me feeling, but I think there needs to be, or there should be more of like a transitionary path to that, right?
Speaker 3:Like building a SaaS is my first thing, was the dumbest thing ever did. Yeah. Know, from a case. Just because I didn't know enough about what people wanted and I didn't know enough in the context of hey this person paid me money to get this in return. Like interviewing people is great and all but unless there's like cash flow happening, it's a little less You need to take things with a little more grain of salt, I think.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Know, it's not as accurate. So I think My favorite example of this is Nick Desvato who has draft revise which is like a AB testing thing. What's cool is it's really It looks like a product. It looks like a SaaS that you're buying but it's really just his time. And what he's able to do is over time he's able to automate a lot of it into software.
Speaker 3:And it now, it eventually becomes a SaaS but right now it's him doing it manually but from the perspective of the customer, they're paying for a SaaS but over time he can start, you know, putting things into place that make it so it's not mixed time, it's mixed You know, the same outcome is being produced but it's not dependent on mixed time. Yeah. I think it's like the best way to
Speaker 2:And that was like, because you've said before, don't start with the SaaS product and I'm trying to remember your timeline because one of our listeners here just asked What if Double Your Freelancing Rate was your first kind of info product? Yes. It was your first info product? Uh-huh. Okay.
Speaker 2:And did you, like when did you decide it was time to move up the chain and do kind of higher value products like your master class?
Speaker 3:Was really mean, double your freelancing rate came from Plantscope customers asking me about pricing. The master class came from general customers, PlanScope and double your freelancing rate, who were asking about, hey, I saw you bootstrapped this agency to 11 people. Like, how did you do that? So that came from that. I mean everything emerged from discussions, right?
Speaker 3:Like everything emerged from people Like, if people keep asking you the same thing and you know that the implications of what they're asking affect their business financially, That's a pretty good smell for a product opportunity. So I do a lot on this now, on my onboarding when people go my newsletter, ask them like, blank, like, you know, what core problem brought you here, right? And I have Gmail automatically labeling all of these and I, from time to time, like once a month, just go through and look at them all and try to extract key elements and normalize it and figure out like, okay, is there anything people are asking about that I don't address? And that's kind of like my product creation formula these days. Before it was the same thing, it just wasn't my audience, it was other people's.
Speaker 3:So I would go on to forums and message boards and whatever else and just, be that fly on a wall and figure out what people are asking to each other. And now, they're asking it to me, which is a little more direct because I can respond directly and I get more volume, I guess. Yeah, so that's kind of exactly what I'm doing now.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so do you not do as much outside research now? Now most of it is just kind of Most
Speaker 3:to your most of it. I have literally probably upwards of 1,500 at least conversations labeled. A lot of different labels in Gmail that And then I take like the core chunks of that into, and I just have Google Docs swipe files that are around different themes. And I normalize that and figure out common trends. And the best part is these are things that people are saying in their own words, so I can know what like That all gets recycled in the marketing, right?
Speaker 3:So my new Double Your Feelings and Rate site that I launched yesterday, like almost every keyword combo and phrase and all that stuff came from somebody saying that it didn't mean to me. Yeah. So it's better that way. Because it shows that you understand their needs, right? Like if you understand what they're going through, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so maybe just explain quickly, how do you do that? So if something comes into Gmail and you have a filter that's filtering out all the responses
Speaker 3:My autoresponders have certain subjects, right? So I just create filters that look for reply to, you know, already colon subject of email and those get automatically labeled in Gmail.
Speaker 2:Gotcha. And so then you can go through those in another time. And then you said you have just something in Google Docs, you just manually copy those into Google Docs?
Speaker 3:Copy, no I copy like, I mean if somebody sends me like a five paragraph email, I'm not gonna, like it's not all valuable to me, probably. But I'll, you know, I try to just extract like, Oh this is a cool way of phrasing this and I'll just copy and paste that into a doc.
Speaker 2:Gotcha, gotcha. So you're tracking all that stuff. I wanna take one step back and we'll just quickly talk about maybe, because you said you've learned something doing your first workshop to your second. Why don't you just take us through how you do a workshop now, how you'd recommend people do a workshop, how should they structure it? Because I'm sure a lot of people are thinking like, What do I do, I just go on and teach or?
Speaker 3:So the stuff I did early, like when I first did my master class it was the typical, I had a slide deck and I'd just share my screen and drone into my microphone for a few hours. The issue with that is it's a one to many thing, right? Like it's a broadcast. You know, it's no different than somebody reading a book of mine. You know, they're hearing the author but there's no like discussion element.
Speaker 3:So what I've been doing lately is Google Hangouts or even go to webinar with everyone off of mute and making it, like so my master class format now is I have this really lengthy outline that kinda spears the talking points that I cover. So my master class is two days, five hours a day. Well it's ten hours total. And what I do is like the first day is all sales marketing. I just work through that outline.
Speaker 3:But it's conversational. I'll say like, you know, so Bob, tell me more about exactly how What is your sales process now and what do you think you're gonna do differently as a result of what we just covered? So it's very It's like we're all around the table talking, right? But I'm the one steering the discussion, I'm the moderator. And so it's less formal, I guess, but what I found is it's a lot more valuable for the attendee.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. With the added benefit that you don't need to prepare a bunch of Keynote presentation slides.
Speaker 2:Gotcha. So do you have any slides now or you just have an outline and then everyone's kind of on screen.
Speaker 3:And all like their results and the reception is exponentially higher. Because people would just get, you know, staring at a slide deck for five hours, I mean you get zoned, like it's, okay, you kind of, know, zoned Yeah. So now it's just a conversation that me and up to 14 other people have. And that's what I do for everything now. And it's just a way, you know, it's recorded so I can go in and reference it.
Speaker 3:And you know, over time, my master class over the last So I switched last summer to being this kind of more informal setting for the master class. And each time it gets better because I'm realizing like, I'm refining, you know, I've got a follow-up survey too which helps too, you know, also. But during the class I can kinda tell where I'm losing people, what do people keep like getting stuck on and so on. And it helps me refine that definitive outline for the next time I do it, right? Yeah.
Speaker 3:But eventually, I have so much data about how it's evolved over time But if I ever wanted to make me sitting here and getting some film crew to do a build your own consultancy little video course, I would be much better off than if I had done that without the context of over a year of doing these live workshops. Yeah. Just because it's so much more about the attendees and what drew them there and what really are their needs. What do they need to know and need to have addressed?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is awesome. What would you recommend for someone starting out? Like should they just do a one hour workshop on a Saturday? What's kind of the sweet spot for somebody starting out?
Speaker 3:I'm focusing on freelancers who tend to more or less set their own schedule, so weekdays are okay, and I don't like weekends anyway. But for a lot of things, yeah, Saturday might be better. Some Sunday ones too. Or nighttime ones, like Ramit does a lot of, for his webinars, does a lot of like 9PM eastern time. So I would just, like I tell people all the time, like, you can't fail.
Speaker 3:Failure is just nobody showing up and it's like, just republish a new date and try it again.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Has that ever happened to you?
Speaker 3:Yeah. But yeah. Because even with the I mean, could talk launch strategy for these things too. Mhmm. But with that at this workshop, I basically sold it out in less than an hour because I had built up a pretty decent launch sequence.
Speaker 3:All through the postscript area of my weekly newsletter. So I sold it with no website, like the first time. There was no site, nothing at all. It was all through like the PS line. Newsletter, kinda crazy but it works.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But for someone starting out, like let's just give them a picture. Like could it be because I don't know what I've never done one of these so I don't know what where does the value start? I'm sure it depends on the You've
Speaker 3:done these live Hangout things.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Not much of a difference.
Speaker 2:So would you do like I'm just thinking like, think of yourself if you had 100 people on your list, 200 people, 300 people. Do you think should they shoot for having five people to start and like an I would
Speaker 3:start with free webinars. Like don't do a paid workshop yet. Just do like a Just do like a one hour, thirty minute, no, I'd say a one hour thing that correlates with the kind of stuff you write about each week or on your newsletter. Because the thing is like, even a newsletter, it's a one in many format, right? You reach out to a lot of people but yes you can have the whole reply and tell me something whatever, but it's still a little awkward I think to reply versus a hey come hang out with me for an hour.
Speaker 3:You know, if you have any questions relating to marketing for developers, let's just, know, I'm here, you can ask me anything, I'll address each of your questions. It's a really great way to build up that kind of future customer loyalty. Right? Like that's what you're doing. And then you can say, okay so I'm glad you enjoyed that.
Speaker 3:We covered the why. We covered the, on a superficial level, different questions. Now come out and we're gonna, for three hours, for $100 or $500 or whatever you wanna charge, we're gonna drill much deeper into this kind of stuff we talked about on that free thing we did. But you know, we're gonna drill much deeper. I've got a content that I wanna share with you.
Speaker 3:A very structured framework, let's say. And you put that together and it's the just exposition of what you would have done anyway in like a book format, let's say. And you cover that exhaustively and you just invite the people who attended before. And the people who attended before are the ones who gave you a lot of good feedback and those questions about what you should be asking, what you should cover, what you should teach on. And if two people show up, that just means it's more valuable to them.
Speaker 3:They get more value out of it because there's more direct exposure and it's just learning and experimenting for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is great. I wish I'd done this for my first book because it would've been so Like I heard you mention this on another podcast where you said you said, you know, I wouldn't have built a SaaS, and then everyone kinda automatically jumps to a book. But people don't realize, like, a SaaS and a book are actually a lot of work. And then you had mentioned, well, I I would just do a webinar. I was thinking, oh yeah, like a webinar.
Speaker 2:That really reduces barrier to entry, doesn't it?
Speaker 3:I think it's closer to consoling. It's more valuable to the attendee in a lot of ways. The attendee gets more value because they have direct, you know, it's like with a book, again, what's the protocol if you have a follow-up question? What do you do? Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Reply to the, email the author, it's kind of weird, right? But people do that, obviously. But it's not as comfortable I think as having like a discussion forum.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. This is awesome. Just a quick question. Corey asks, you know, with the SaaS app you often look for people losing money on a problem.
Speaker 2:Is there kind of an equivalent answer for something like a webinar? Is it the same thing? Looking for people that are looking to save money or
Speaker 3:It's just the difference in Medium, right? The big eye opener, the thing that let me write a book, because I was a typical engineer, I was like, ebooks are scammy, I'm not doing that. I started to realize no one cared that PlanScript was Mac. Right? Like no one cared that my book is a PDF file or a Kindle, whatever.
Speaker 3:What matters is the results, the change, the delta they get after using your product or consuming your product. So that's what allowed me to do it was, you know, people sign up for something like PlanScope because they wanna be more accountable to their clients. They wanna be more transparent. They wanna really impress their clients when it comes to managing their project. But people buy double your freelancing rate not because they want a book.
Speaker 3:They buy it because they wanna raise their prices. Or they buy my other book, Blueprint, because they wanna generate more leads. So it's all, like there's always that end. And you know, I think as technical people, as engineers and stuff, we get so caught up on the medium because it took us so long to get good at Ruby or so long to get good at coding or whatever else that we're so fixated on that. Even if you're selling to developers, they don't give a shit.
Speaker 3:I don't care what CodePlanet's made in. I just want my app to be better. I wanna see that awesome report that says I'm doing something good. Yeah. You know, it's just, we get so fixated on the medium.
Speaker 3:So yeah, I think it's all about benefits. Could be a webinar, it could be a one on one consulting Skype call, it could be a book, it could be a video course, could be software, it could be what like it doesn't matter, think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Awesome. Hey, Brennan, thanks so much for your time. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you, Justin.
Speaker 2:Cool, man.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Alright. That's the show for this week. Big thanks to Brennan Dunn. You should check out Brennan online. Brennandunn.com.
Speaker 1:At Brennan dunn on Twitter. Planscope.io. Doubleyourfreelancingrate.com. That's where you need to go. Go check him out.
Speaker 1:He has helped a lot of people. And if you're into consulting or you call yourself a freelancer right now, he's the guy you need to talk to. Alright? You can follow the show product people at product people TV on Twitter. Again, go and check out what we're doing at productpeople.club.
Speaker 1:You might be interested. Go see what it's about. We're gonna be sharing live video from these interviews. So the full interview. I only shared about half with you today, but you get the full interview where Brandon Dunn actually goes through his funnel and shows you how everything works.
Speaker 1:That's gonna be at productpeople.club. What else? I'm Justin. You can follow me on Twitter MIJustin. Stryker Metal, strykermetal.com.
Speaker 1:Thanks for the music, guys. And, man, it feels like I'm forgetting something. I can't think of it. Just go out and do it. See you next week.
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