Episode 56
· 37:45
Hey. How's it going? Justin Jackson here, and this is the Product People Show. Man, I haven't put out an episode in a while. I have a bunch recorded, but I haven't had time to edit them and just put them out.
Speaker 1:I've just been slammed. Haven't had time or energy for anything. It's crappy at work. We're dealing with this anti Canadian anti spam legislation right now. Man, that is a lot of work if you are sending email in Canada.
Speaker 1:And then at home, there's just always stuff to bring the kids to, appointments and classes and activities. So I've been drained, you know? And you ever feel like that? I used to get a lot stuff a lot of stuff done in the morning, early in the morning or late at night. But these days, I just barely get myself into bed and barely get myself out of bed in the morning.
Speaker 1:Anyway, I'm hoping to put an end to this product people drought and start releasing new episodes every Thursday now. So subscribe and watch for a new episode every Thursday. And on that topic, I've got a landing page up for something new. It's called Product People Club. Go to productpeople.club on the Internet and sign up for the waiting list because I'll have something to announce soon.
Speaker 1:Productpeople.club. Okay. So ages ago, I interviewed Sean Fioreto Fioreto? I have a hard time saying his last name, but he's the author of sketchingwithcss.com. And I like Sean a lot.
Speaker 1:He's from Chicago. He struggled for years trying to build his own products. Then he wrote this book, sketchingwithcss.com, and it just took off. So if you've ever struggled, if you've ever had products that you tried to launch and they didn't work, this episode is for you. You'll get to hear his story.
Speaker 1:By the way, this interview is available in full video in my upcoming book, marketing for developers. Go to justinjackson.ca/marketingfordevelopers for more information. Okey dokey. Smokey, let's get to the interview with Sean. Sorry.
Speaker 1:One more thing. A lot of you know that I'm really into heavy metal. My favorite band, Stryker, has allowed me to use some of their tracks here on the podcast. This is Land of the Lost. You can get it at striker-metal.com.
Speaker 1:Hey. It's Justin Jackson, and I am here with Sean Fiorodi. I knew I was going to get that wrong. Sean
Speaker 2:Fiorodi. Fiorodi. Fiorodi.
Speaker 1:Fiorodi. Fiorodi. Man, I'm here with Sean. Sean is the author of Sketching with CSS at sketchingwithcss.com. Hey, Sean.
Speaker 1:How's it going?
Speaker 2:Doing good. How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm doing good. Doing good. Doing good. Sorry, messed up your last name.
Speaker 2:That's okay. Everybody messes up my last name. Fiorito. That's right. Yeah, you got it.
Speaker 2:Nailed it.
Speaker 1:The problem is when you're under pressure Yeah. It changes everything, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, I did an interview for Sketching with CSS with and now, see, I'm gonna have to say his name, Nick DeSabado. And I was like, I could not say his name right. It took me like three times. And we And then I finally got it, and then we started recording, and then I said it wrong.
Speaker 1:It happens to the best of us.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's how it goes.
Speaker 1:I've been really intrigued about sketching with CSS. It's book. Maybe I can actually I'll just show a quick screen grab of it here because there it is right there. And you've done quite well with this. Can you share a little bit of revenue numbers?
Speaker 1:How well has this done since you launched it?
Speaker 2:I just went over $20,000 in revenue. Wow. You know, it's not like I spent a lot. So so that's mostly profit.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. And it looks like you've got a few packages here, or is it just one package? No. It's a few.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Three packages. Blatant copy of Nathan Barry's setup.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that's and that's worked well for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Perfect. Well, let's get into first of all, maybe let's just get into your background. Are are you what were you doing before you you built sketching with CSS?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I'm a web developer. Let's see. I'm a computer science major and then I I after that, I I spent a couple years at Accenture doing IT consulting, you know, big enterprise software stuff. And then after that, I I spent the last five years at a place called McMaster Carr, which is an industrial supply company.
Speaker 2:It was an interesting place to work. It was You've either never heard of them or you've heard of them and you love them. I learned they're actually a pretty big company. And so I got to work on website primarily doing front end development stuff for them, you
Speaker 1:know. Okay.
Speaker 2:That kind of stuff. Yeah, so just a regular full time developer.
Speaker 1:So and what got you interested in building your own products?
Speaker 2:Well, so that's something that I've wanted to do forever. And in fact, I've spent One of the reasons I left Accenture So Accenture was a great job, but it was just a lot of hours consulting. Was just a ton of hours. And I I always wanted to do my own start my own company, build my own products. And I I was the plan was to have a have a job and then in my spare time, work on products until I could get to the point where I was making enough money with products to to quit the job.
Speaker 2:Accenture wasn't affording me enough time to do that, so I I went and found another job. And that's what McMaster let me do. McMaster was thirty five to forty hours a week always. It was really really consistent, kinda boring nine to five job, but I I got all this spare time to spend on on products, which I did. And I went through in my spare time, you know, for those five years, I think I probably tried five or six different things, mostly software.
Speaker 1:Okay. Can you give us an idea of what you tried?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Let's see. So first thing I did was like a productivity app. It was it's I like, gotta say, like none of these were good ideas at all. It was it's all kind of embarrassing now looking back at it.
Speaker 2:But it was like a productivity web application. I did that with a friend. My friend actually moved, quit his job and moved to Chicago and lived with me and my wife for a year. So that we could work on that. That that did not pan out.
Speaker 2:And then, let's see. What else did I do? There's there's another collaboration app. It was like email based project collaboration. I thought it was a cool idea, you know, instead of using project management web application, use email and it basically just kinda sucks out the project data from behind the scenes.
Speaker 2:I I thought that was a pretty cool idea but that went nowhere. And then I did the one well, the one thing that I did that actually had any traction at all was this was for, it was a very niche application. So it was for PR agencies to do media monitoring. That's kind of part of what PR agencies do is for clients is they keep an eye out on the web for what's going on and for, you know, anytime anybody mentions something about their clients. So my app made it easier for them to use Google alerts basically.
Speaker 2:So it was like filtered Google alerts. Yeah. So that got some traction. I could've maybe turned that into a business. I I could have actually, in retrospect.
Speaker 2:But at that point, that had been several years, and there's a couple other ideas in there that that didn't go anywhere at all. There was a church website building app and like a I don't know, you know, bunch of bad ideas. I was pretty burned out and the PR agency thing, the problem with that was, like, I didn't really wanna work with PR agencies. I just had I didn't know anything about the industry, I didn't I just got boring pretty fast, so So I gave up and I just bailed on it and I open sourced it and moved on.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Now there's a few things there I want to touch on because on the surface, you know, none of those sound like ridiculous ideas. Like they sound like reasonable, like, you know, like there's So what was it about them that didn't work out? You said the last one, you know, maybe could have been something and I think maybe the first thing we can bring out is this has come up over and over again. You kind of have to like, especially your customers.
Speaker 1:So in that sense, it was reasonable, but you didn't really like the customers as much. What do you think it was about the other things? Like, those seem like reasonable ideas. Why didn't they pan out?
Speaker 2:Well, because they didn't start with a customer first. So this is tricky. Was actually really into the whole Lean Startup thing when that came out. And I still think there's merit to that whole thing. Started with one other guy, the Lean Startup meetup in Chicago.
Speaker 2:Like in the first meetup was like four of us in a bar. Yeah. I was really really into that whole idea and the idea with that is you you do customer validation or you got product validation, idea validation. You gotta you take your idea and then you gotta see you gotta talk to people and validate it. So in in retrospect, I think the problem was that I think that's like backwards.
Speaker 2:I would never do it that way again. I would never start with an idea. And then, you know, like, people have this like this thought that that you're gonna have this like cool idea, and then you're gonna build it, all you have to do is find customers for it. And that's totally the wrong way to do that. If you're Bootstrapper, but even with other kinds of companies.
Speaker 1:But
Speaker 2:if you're a bootstrapper, especially, that's wrong because you just don't have time to waste doing that stuff. And there are all kinds of pitfalls you run into as well. So like with the project collaboration app. So first of all, I was building this project collaboration app with no idea whatsoever of what customer I had. Which in retrospect, it's like I don't know what the hell I was thinking with that.
Speaker 2:But like, how do you it's like the project collaboration app that anybody can use for any project to help, you know, improve your workflow. Like, that's that's impossible to market, impossible to, like, actually build a nice clean, you know, app that's gonna solve a problem for somebody. It's just impossible to go from that direction. So okay. Then we discovered the Lean Startup thing and we started doing customer interviews.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So first of all, I don't even know how I ended up we started looking at we tried a bunch of different kinds of people we thought might be good fit for the for this. And what we ended up doing was going with nonprofit development organizers. So like there's a role in non profits where they they basically organize the fundraising and all of that. And that
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:So that the reason that worked well for us was I could run Facebook ads pretty easily and get interviews pretty easily with these people, because I could just put their job title in the Facebook ad and then, you know, offer $20. So I think that's Yeah. Honestly, that's why we went with that. So like, I started talking to them. I did probably thirty, forty interviews, you know.
Speaker 2:I got better at them and I, you know, I started asking people if they would pay for it. I would ask, you know, I'd ask what I thought was ridiculous amounts of money for them to pay. So I did all the stuff that you're supposed to do. I guess the moral of the story here is there's lot of different failure modes that you can you can go through, and I pretty much hit all of them. Like, in in this case, there's just no way that I was gonna take I was gonna like backwards fit onto so here's here are all the problems with this.
Speaker 2:Right? Mhmm. Nonprofits. Nonprofits, they do have a budget, but like, they're not really thinking that way. They're really looking for freebies, handouts, stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Like Yeah. You know. And that's fine. But that's not, you know, not a great customer to pick for your business. So there's that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The other problem was, you know, a collaboration app is like, what is that solving? Like I didn't even know what problem I was solving. So like And how was I gonna write marketing copy and blog posts? And how was I gonna create my marketing for nonprofits?
Speaker 2:That's just way too vague, way too big, way too it's just way too huge. So that whole thing ended up petering out because of problems with my cofounder. But really, problems with my cofounder were happening because we were having problems with the business because nobody was buying it and like we didn't know what we were doing with it. It was vague and undefined, and it's hard to know if we were making progress. So really, I think it failed because we started with this idea first, rather than starting with customers.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that's something that I see a lot. I get a lot of email from people that are building things. And kind of the thing a lot of people say is, I built this thing, now how do I find customers?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You're doomed. Like as soon as I hear that, I'm like, you're doomed. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And and so what did you do next? So once you figured this out, once you figured out this is not working, what did you do that ended up like, maybe take us through sketching with CSS. Like, how did that happen?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So sketching with CSS. So I gotta give Amy Hoy and 30 by 500 credit for, you know, for giving me the the right framework and structure for working with and creating products. Basically, the main thing that I figured out with with that class, and this is even before I took the class, was that you can't start with you can't start with an idea. Like, that's just I don't know how to put this.
Speaker 2:It's like a it's sort of a self centered way of doing product development. Like, it's all about me, me, me, like my idea. When you start to see it that way, you realize like you're not really helping other people. Like really, it's about empathy for your customers and like really really really understanding and getting into like what your customers problems are. So
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I I was reading a bunch of Amy Hoy's blog posts and that's when I sort of had that epiphany, which she, you know, handed to me on a platter. It's not like She she she says this over and over again. So I couldn't take the class actually at that point because she was like changing the format or something. I was pretty desperate to take the class. So actually, I ended up reverse engineering it by finding every single thing that she'd ever written ever about it, and pulling that all together, and then also getting in touch with a bunch of 30 by 500 alumni, and asking them questions.
Speaker 2:And a lot of those people are still my friends and mentors. So Sketching with CSS was actually created before I took 30x500 just by but I sort of created the class for myself. So that but that was like the real turning point in the way I think about things, and everything else that came after that starts with that basic understanding of starting with customers first. Because one of the other things that one of the one of the things she said that just convinced me that she knew what she was talking about was that that if you don't start with a customer, you probably will end up with customers you don't like. Like that needs to be a part of your decision process when you're creating a a company and a product is, you know, your customer or audience, as she calls it.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And I knew that from I had just wrapped up that whole PR agency thing, where I was like, finally I made a product that people would definitely pay for. And now I hated my audience. Or at the very least, didn't hate them, I just like, I didn't know how to talk to them or write about PR stuff. I had this blog for them, but I was like, I don't know what to write.
Speaker 2:I'm not a PR person, you know, I'm not in that industry.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think this came up in some other interviews I've had too is people don't realize like, especially if you're marketing, you're going to have to be talking to these people every single week. And the idea of, you know, one thing that comes up a lot is I'm building a, you know, people build products for real estate agents. I think there's some reasons behind this, think because everyone knows a real estate agent. There's probably some psychology around that but the idea like you're going to have to be reaching out to real estate agents every single week and that's kind of a grind even if you're passionate about it.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it's a grind to do content.
Speaker 2:Sorry,
Speaker 1:Imagine talking I had to them every single week and maybe we don't always project forward enough when we're thinking about ideas, you know, like this is something I have to do for a long time and it's going to be a lot of work.
Speaker 2:Right. And you know, there's another thing that I so I'm actually gonna be for my next product, I'm gonna be changing my audience a little bit. Not a massive change, but a little because with this, with Sketching with CSS, I was talking to web designers. And I'm not a web designer, I'm a web developer. And I mean that that whole thing is really blurry, but like, really, sketching with CSS is for people that, you know, have been just doing mostly Photoshop and not and not code.
Speaker 2:The closer you are to that, the more value you get out of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The problem there is that I could not relate with that. Like I didn't come from that direction at all. I came to web the web and website, you know, from the opposite direction, from coding.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so that's really hard when you go to write marketing copy. It's really hard then to write stuff that's gonna resonate with people and you're not but it's much easier. It's almost like you're hacking the whole marketing copy thing if it's you know, you're part of the audience. I mean, that's not the final answer. You can't it's not there's still work you have to do.
Speaker 2:You still have to do research, but it's so much harder when you're not a part of the audience. So that you can even go even further and say, Yeah, you have to like them. And it's even easier. Your life is gonna be so much easier if you're part of the audience, too.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And maybe let's talk a little bit about that. Specifically, how did you choose the audience for sketching with CSS? Like, did you decide on that group first? So
Speaker 2:I wanted to well, so the way you should pick an audience is you should think about, and I'm gonna say audience, but I mean I mean customers. Don't Yeah. Have customers yet, but
Speaker 1:Target market.
Speaker 2:Right. Right. The the way you should pick that market is by picking up people that have money that buy things, that buy tools. So that's kinda like step one. You should also like them and and be able to relate with them.
Speaker 2:And for for web designers, it was also where I I was thinking web designers. I thought my thinking was at the time, I could bring more value to web designers than web developers because, like, as a developer, I have that skill set which I could bring to the table for designers. You know, I think that's true, but like I said, that ended up kind of biting me. It was a little bit harder to really a lot of people think I'm a web designer now because of my copy and the book. So I, you know, in that respect, I did succeed, but it was a lot of work to do that.
Speaker 2:That's another thing.
Speaker 1:So you just named three things. I think you named three things. One was they have to have money. Two was you have to like them and be able to relate with them. And I think you're saying three, it's even better if you're in that group.
Speaker 1:Yes, if you're in
Speaker 2:the group yourself, absolutely. And not only do they need to have money, they need to show that they buy things. It's kind of a two parter. Yeah. So businesses, like people that have a business mindset.
Speaker 2:There's a huge difference between a consumer mindset and business mindset.
Speaker 1:Explain that a little bit because I think that line for some folks Especially when we're talking about ideas. Because I think those of us that get a lot of emails from people see these patterns a lot and people don't realize that we're seeing these patterns. So like that real estate thing comes up over and over again with people that email me and people that email others I know. The other thing that comes up a lot is going after consumer markets. So what do you mean by a business mindset?
Speaker 1:What is a business mindset? How is it different than consumer mindset?
Speaker 2:So I'll just I can only offer some anecdotes. What I've experienced is so I've priced the book. I mean, the highest package is $2.50 and then the book itself is $40. And someone with a consumer mindset is going to come to that page and sort of flip out at the price. Right?
Speaker 2:But from a business mindset, you go through more of this sort of thought process. It's basically the way that somebody thinks about the purchase and the product. They're going to think, probably. And they're going to think, okay, so I'm going to spend $250 on this, but I can give it to all my developers or all my designers. And they're going to think about return on investment.
Speaker 2:Like how fast am I going to get this money back from $250 Or like, would this save everybody enough time if I bought this? So a consumer mindset, you're not really thinking about that. I can't talk to what consumers are thinking. I know that it's so much easier when somebody is thinking about how much money a product is going to make them or save them.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The example I use in the book is I say think about, and we can use $250 as an example, think about what that means for you as a consumer spending $250 Like a $250 purchase is a major purchase, right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Now think about a business and unfortunately anyone that doesn't have a company credit card or has never kind of dealt with that doesn't kind of understand this but anyone with a company credit card, like I buy tons and tons of software for the company I work for, Anytime you have a company credit card, literally anything under it's either $500 $1,000 or $1,500 that's usually the limit is there's no questions asked. Like, you can literally purchase something like that and no one cares because as a percentage of their budget So $250 as a percentage of my monthly budget is a fair amount but $250 as a percentage of a business' budget, even if they have five or 10 employees, is very small. And so if your developer, if your web designers in your case, are costing you whatever it is, dollars 50, 100 an hour, and you've got four of them and you think you can save an hour worth of time at least with $250, well, you've already saved your money, right?
Speaker 2:Done. Right, exactly. Exactly. And $250 is just nothing. First of all, yeah, that's the first thing to a business, $2.50, a business that's actually making money, which is the kind that you want as customers.
Speaker 2:Dollars $2.50 is not a lot of money. But even still, even if you think about freelancers, that sort of thinking about people having business cards to buy things rules out freelancers and consultants who don't necessarily have that. But they still are more inclined to think with that business investment mindset $2.50 again. Okay, I'm a freelance web designer right now. I do Photoshop designs and I but that limits the number of the kinds of clients that you can have.
Speaker 2:If you are all of a sudden, you know, you can create prototypes and concepts that can click on and like, you can work better with a front end developer. That's those are those kinds of people are in more demand. You could probably double or triple your rates and like in a couple hours, make back the money they spent on the book. Know? Yeah.
Speaker 2:So really, with stuff like info products, when you're teaching somebody that the thing that I I think you gotta factor in more is less the cost and more the time. And being respectful of people's time, because that's actually worth more than the money that they're going to end up spending on the book. It's the time they're going to spend, you know, reading and working through your stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, I love that idea. Other I've been thinking a lot about why people switch from one product to another and there's a lot of kind of thinking around this with the jobs to be done framework with Clayton Christensen. And one thought is, and I've seen
Speaker 2:this
Speaker 1:anecdotally, especially with freelancers, is they might be thinking they've got options, right? So they could go back to school and learn what you're going to teach them. They could go to a conference or a workshop and learn what you're to teach them, or they could buy your book. And I think that's actually a decision that a lot of people make a lot is, well, what should I do? Should I go to this conference?
Speaker 1:The ticket's $1,500 The airline's going to cost me $1,000 and then I'm going have to have a hotel and food. Wow, I'm up to a lot of money there. And, you know, so they might be up to 3,000 or $4,000 and your book is $250 It's a choice. I can do this or I can switch to this. And it's still doing the same job.
Speaker 1:I need to learn this so I can triple my rate, like you said. That was actually great marketing copy that you're just speaking, right? Like you're saying, if you buy this book in an hour, you could probably double or triple your rate. Like that's, that would be, that could be a line on a page, right? If you buy this book, you could double or triple your rate in an hour.
Speaker 1:And those are the kinds of things people react to, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's one of the strategies that you could take with your marketing copy. That's not what I did actually with mine, but yeah, you could totally do that. I think Brennan Dunn actually have you interviewed him?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah, I've talked to him lots.
Speaker 2:Yeah, his marketing copy is all about that with his double your I think his book title is even Double Your Freelance Rate. Yeah, he's very good at that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Now, maybe let's talk a little bit, because what kind of customers did you end up getting? So did you end up getting freelancers? Did you end up getting people buying with the corporate credit card? And were you able to kind of figure out why?
Speaker 1:Like what was it that caused them to buy the book in the first place?
Speaker 2:Yeah, kind of. I mean, that's one of the things. So at this scale, like where I'm at right now, I mean, I've only sold $20,000 worth of book. It's a lot from my first thing ever, so I'm excited about that. But really, it's not that much.
Speaker 2:So one of the problems one of the things I struggle with is I don't don't have time or resources to to put into figuring out these kinds of things. Like I have some idea. So anyway, I'm a little frustrated with that. Like I don't I don't really know. Some of the marketing stuff that I've done, I don't know exactly like how or when somebody went through all of the stuff I have set up and then ended up buying.
Speaker 2:I have kind of a guess, but that's about all I've got. But I I will say that usually when people buy the complete package, which there haven't been too many. I don't know exactly how many. Maybe 50 or something like that. I look up their email address and see, like, you know, try and figure out what company they work for.
Speaker 2:And so the complete package is pretty predictable. That was it's what I thought. It's it it was design agencies for the most part. The work in agencies are buying it. Because that's that's what I had in mind when I was writing the book was, you know, smaller to to medium sized design agencies that they have to be big enough that they break out the roles into designer and front end developer.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so they're trying to make this transition to doing responsive design, which means that everybody's gotta get more into the code. Yeah. So that that was pretty much what I thought would happen. So that I think that pricing in my marketing copy led to yeah.
Speaker 2:Those those kinds of people buying. Yeah. But then the rest the other packages were quite a little bit more of a mixed bag. And also, then my newsletter. So I've got an idea for for like what my newsletter is made of.
Speaker 2:Like who what people in my newsletter do. What I learned from that, because I ran a survey. I just sent them a link to a survey, because I was like, Alright, I'm mystified. I was just getting a little bit frustrated because I didn't know who was on my list. Like, who are these people?
Speaker 2:I don't understand. So I sent out a a link to a survey and I got a couple 100 responses and that I learned I learned that my list is a lot more technically proficient than I realized. So I have mostly web developers, people that come from my direction of things instead of
Speaker 1:Oh, really? Yeah. So you it ended up being that a lot of your customers are web developers, and you thought it would be web designers.
Speaker 2:I did, yeah. Thought it would be designers and small to medium sized agencies. But the people that bought the book and the other video package were a mix, just a crazy mix. And I think that my list and my customers reflect where, like, my guest blog posts hit. So like and and who linked to me.
Speaker 2:There are a couple, like, CSS tricks. Chris Coire linked to me a couple times and mentioned me a couple times and did an interview for the book. And so a lot of the people on my list, the customers overlap with his stuff and that's a more technical audience. So I think that it had more to do with that. And then also the kinds of things that I wrote about were technical.
Speaker 2:And it was like it was nothing I could do about it. I I I it would just naturally, I ended up writing more technical things. You know, so that I would've made more money if I targeted, you know, web developers to begin with and made something made something for them because it's so much easier for me, apparently, to market. Alright.
Speaker 1:I'm just gonna break in here. Remember I was talking about productpeople.club? That's wwwproductpeople.club. Well, the full version of this interview in video is going to eventually be available there. So that's a little heads up as to part of what Product People Club is gonna be about.
Speaker 1:You're gonna be able to watch the full I think it was an hour and a half with Sean. We actually went through shared screens and went through a lot of his process, a lot of the steps he took to build and launch and test, validate all those things, this idea for sketching with CSS. So if you haven't already, go to productpeople.club, sign up for the waiting list, and you'll hear when we launch. Exactly. Cool.
Speaker 1:Well, this has been really helpful, Sean. Thanks so much for sharing your process. Really I like the fact that you have this history of trying some things before that didn't work. And then you it's just helpful because I think we've all been there where we've tried some things, and then being able to kind of explain how you found this audience and then kind of determine why they might be a good audience and then did that research and then offered the solution and then kind of went through the whole process of writing and launching the book. Really helpful.
Speaker 2:Great. That's awesome. Glad it's helpful.
Speaker 1:So if you want to check-in with Sean, you can go to sketchingwithcss.com and check out the book for sure. And anywhere else you'd like people to find you on the Internet?
Speaker 2:Yeah, on Twitter sfiorito, which nobody can spell.
Speaker 1:I'll make sure I overlay the actual video with that video on Twitter. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks again, Sean.
Speaker 2:Okay, great. Thanks, Justin.
Speaker 1:Alright. That's the show for this week. Big thanks to Sean for coming on the show. Again, you can follow him at s f I o r I t t o on Twitter. He also has a great free Flexbox tutorial.
Speaker 1:Go to sketchingwithcss.com/flexbox-tutorial. You can follow me, Justin, on Twitter at m I Justin. You can check out my blog, justinjackson.ca. Hey. If you haven't done it already, go to iTunes, find the show, just search product people, and leave us a nice review that really helps the show get noticed, helps other people find the show.
Speaker 1:And the more people that find the show, the more people we have building products, and that is a good thing. So us a review on iTunes. Share the show with your friends. Follow us on Twitter at product people TV. Okay?
Speaker 1:Alright. I'll see you next Thursday. Oh, and go check out my buddies, Stryker. Stryker-metal.com. This is what track are we listening to right now?
Speaker 1:Darn it. Can't stop the rush. Alright? Okay. See you later.
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