Episode 100
· 01:02:30
Hey product people, Justin Jackson here, and I've got a brand new interview for you with James Clear, who is the author of Atomic Habits, a book that has really changed my life, since I've read it. And I don't want to give too much of an intro, I just want to get right into the actual interview. If you like this, please reach out to James on Twitter JamesClear. And if you have comments about the episode, reach out to me on Twitter. I'm the letter M, the I, Justin.
Speaker 1:M I Justin. Here is me and James talking about habits and how you can make your life better one day at a time. The book. Your book's been out for a while. It's right here.
Speaker 1:Atomic Habits. If you see it in an airport or something near you. How long has it been out now?
Speaker 2:Today is a hundred days exactly.
Speaker 1:No way. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So just just over three months.
Speaker 1:You know, I'm I'm curious because now it's been out for a while. Is there one idea that you see that people keep sharing? Like, one idea that resonated from the book in particular that gets shared more than anything else on Twitter or wherever?
Speaker 2:So I I was curious about that myself when I was, you know, writing the book and thinking about it because I I kinda felt like, alright. You know, hopefully, all these ideas are useful. What's the one thing that people are gonna latch on to? Because sometimes you'll hear that from authors that like there was one chapter or something that was the chapter that really stuck with people. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm grateful for the fact that there are a variety of things, but the there there are a few things. So the first one is identity based habits, which is chapter two. Yeah. And that concept really seems to have resonated with people. The idea of like trying to reinforce your desired identity and kind of, like, starting with who you wanna become rather than what you wanna achieve.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And, I'm glad that it did because that was the chapter I debated over the most of where to put it in the book. I had it at different points, it was the first chapter. It was the last chapter. It ended up being the second one. I also had this a thought in my head that it should be, like, about midway through the book.
Speaker 2:So it really jumped all over the place, but I ended up thinking, I feel like this is one of the best ideas, so I wanna have it early so that people, even if they don't finish the book, they still come across this idea. Yeah. And I'm glad that that that ended up working out well. The other one that people bring up a lot is the two minute rule And the idea of like scaling your habits down to the point where they take two minutes or less. I think that that's like a very actionable one.
Speaker 2:It's like, okay, I know exactly what to do. I wanted to do a workout, but now I'll just focus on doing five pushups. Or I wanted to read 30 books this year and now I'll focus on reading one page a day or something like that. Gotcha. So I think the actionableness of that one also tends to stick.
Speaker 1:And so going back to the identity one, is this the idea that every action you take or every habit you develop is a vote for the person you wanna become?
Speaker 2:Right. So that's kinda like my core philosophy behind it. This idea that the way that we develop beliefs about ourselves, that we reinforce our self image, that we, develop our identity to a certain degree is largely reinforced by the experiences and behaviors that we perform over time. So some aspects of your identity are relatively fixed. Like, for example, if you're tall or short.
Speaker 2:But even that idea that I am tall or I am short, that's reinforced. You learn that through experiences in life. Now, are many aspects of your identity that are less fixed than that, but are still reinforced by your experiences. So if you, you know, go, if you write one sentence today, you probably don't think about yourself as I am a writer. But if you do that every day for six months or nine months or a year, at some point, you turn around and you think, maybe I am the kind of person who is a writer.
Speaker 2:Or, you know, if you you study biology every Tuesday night for twenty minutes, like, you at some point think, I guess I'm studious. You know? I keep doing this every week. Like, maybe this is the kind of person I am. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I like that idea that our habits are like votes for the the type of person we believe that we are, that they build up evidence of looking at ourselves in a certain way.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And I like to phrase it that way, not only because I believe that it's true, but also, like, beliefs and behavior are kind of a two way street. Right? So, like, you can you'll hear people say things like, well, you know, just be positive or just believe in yourself or fake it till you make it or things like that. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with fake it till you make it. Like, it's it's fine to be positive and believe things about yourself, but it's a very short term strategy because fake it till you make it is asking you to believe something about yourself without having evidence for it.
Speaker 2:You know? It's like that kinda visualization stuff or mantra stuff where you look at yourself in the mirror and you tell yourself, I am a writer. I am a writer. Even though you haven't written yet. And so what I'm saying is similar, but I think importantly different in the sense that you let the behavior lead the way rather than the belief.
Speaker 2:And I I think that's the best lever we have for changing the way that we look at ourselves, which is to say, show up and write a sentence every day, and soon you're gonna have something to root that new identity of I am a writer in. And it gives it's a much more, I think, robust and long term way of changing how you look at yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think for me, the because you first communicated that idea to me in an airport in Denver.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember that.
Speaker 1:And the at the time in my life, I was not doing so good. I was depressed. I was I think cynical. Especially I think cynical about people like you that seem to have it all together, that seem to be really like doing all the good habits. And when you're not doing so good, looking at someone that seems to have it all together just can make you more grumpy or more cynical or more whatever.
Speaker 1:But I remember you sitting down and of hashing this out with me And that idea of Justin, no matter where you're at right now, and no matter what you've done, you could start today with one action. So if you, you know, running today, that might not make a big difference. But then if you do it tomorrow, and then the next day, and then the next day, and then the next day, at the end of the week, you might say, well, wait a second. I think I'm a runner. Right?
Speaker 1:And maybe after a couple weeks, you might say, I'm gonna get myself some runner clothes and go and get some runner clothes. And then I'm gonna get myself a good pair of shoe I'm gonna install that Strava app. And all of a sudden you could see yourself. That was very that was a really hopeful message for me when I was really struggling to figure out it was way easier for me to be cynical and just kinda look back at all these people implementing good healthy processes and say, well that's not for me, that's just for people that whatever, you know. But seeing, hearing that gave me hope to think, you know, I could do that.
Speaker 1:I could and it's surprising how little time it takes to, you know, accomplish that. Is that something have other people been kind of referencing that too? Is that part of the the and maybe that's what's so good about having it as chapter two because it gives you some hope. Right?
Speaker 2:Well, what's interesting is that that process of changing in that way, it's happening anyway. You know? Like, I mean, if you think back to like, the beginning, like, for example, if I think of my the early days of my entrepreneurial career.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Well, I didn't have any entrepreneurs in my family. I didn't have any close friends who were entrepreneurs. There was no reason for me to think that's who I am or to feel like I was externally validated with like that was part of my identity.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I had no evidence of it. And so early on, just all I had was hope. Right? Like the hope that, oh, maybe I'll be able to build something. Maybe I'll be able to make this work.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But then you start to show up. And for me, it was probably about two years in is probably about where the where I kinda like the scale tipped. And I started to think I am an entrepreneur. Like, that's part of of who I am.
Speaker 2:But it really took proving it to myself that I can pay my bills through this, you know, that I can, like, actually have a lifestyle and a career in this way. I had to prove it for about two years before I really started to latch onto it and say, this is who I am.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, so my point is that's always happening. You're you're always you're continually updating your beliefs about yourself based on the experiences that you're going through. Yeah. And all I'm talking about is simply designing that process in a little more careful or thoughtful way rather than just kind of letting it happen to you and be like, well, I guess I'll figure out who I am based on what life throws at me versus how about I figure out who I am based on the votes that I cast each day and decide to what habits I decide to follow.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Again, like that is a a very hopeful message for for someone who's just kinda sitting back and waiting for it to happen. What what sustains you when you're in the in the process, but not there yet? Like like you mentioned entrepreneur and you're like, man, it took a long time.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What sustains
Speaker 2:really good question because I think a lot of habits, know, entrepreneurship is certainly this way, exercise is this way where the rewards of a habit are often very delayed. You know, like what's the reward for working out for like three weeks? Like not really a whole lot, honestly. Your body hasn't really changed. The scale is probably about the same.
Speaker 2:You're probably just sore, know? Like there there probably isn't like a whole lot to show for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's really not unless you stick with that habit for three months or six months or a year that you actually start to see the changes you were hoping to get when you set out. Yeah. And so there's kind of this, like, valley of death in the beginning Mhmm. Where in a way, it's sort of like gets harder before it gets easier. You know?
Speaker 2:It feels uncomfortable. You feel sore and pain you feel uncertain when you walk in the gym. You feel like people are judging you. Yeah. Same way with starting a business.
Speaker 2:You know? In a weird way, it's kind of harder before it gets easier. You start out, but you're not making any money. You feel stupid a lot of the time because you're you don't know how to make a sales call or what customers are looking for or whether you're even offering the right product. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I remember when I first started, I, I'd like I said, I didn't know anybody, didn't have any entrepreneurs in my family. So I was like, well, I need to get to know some people. Yeah. So I sent a bunch of emails to reach out and just ask if people would chat on Skype for, like, thirty minutes or whatever. And I remember sending those first few and thinking, is this even do people even do this?
Speaker 2:Do people chat on Skype with people that they haven't met before? Like, is this a weird thing to ask? You know? There's just a lot of that uncertainty early on. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So your point is, I think, a valid one, which is, well, what do you do to get through that? You know? Like, how do you how do you kinda get through that valley of death while you're waiting for the long term rewards to accumulate?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think that this is where, psychologists call it reinforcement or an external reinforcer, but you you want some kind of reinforcement that is enjoyable in the moment so that you have a reason to keep showing up. Okay. So there are there are kinda from a habit standpoint, there are kinda two ways to do this. First thing is just a strategic choice about what type of habit you choose to follow. So if we go back to the exercise example, well, not everybody has to work out like a bodybuilder.
Speaker 2:You could do Pilates or yoga or go for a run or rock climbing or all kinds of stuff. And so pick the form of a habit that brings you the most joy, that is most enjoyable to you. Yeah. It's gonna be a slog for you know, you're gonna have to swim for months to see a change in your body, you're gonna have to cycle for months, you're gonna have to lift weights for months. It doesn't really matter which one you choose, it's gonna take a while.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you might as well choose the one that's most exciting or enjoyable to you. Yeah. Same way with like, you know, imagine a reading habit. You know, like you don't have to read.
Speaker 2:You might feel like, oh, I have a business, so I need to read business books. But really, ultimately, the most important thing is do you get in the habit of reading? Do you fall in love with reading? Yeah. So if you need to start with sci fi books or fantasy or something like that, well, start with that.
Speaker 2:You know? Like, do do the one that is, intrinsically valuable to you at first. And once the habit is built, then you can transition to some of the other stuff. Yeah. So that's one method for for kinda getting through that valley of death.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think this brings up maybe a harder question, which is, so, you know, based on your book, it's January and I'm thinking, okay, you know, I haven't been in the gym for seven years. I used to love working out. I'm gonna go. I got my Streaks app on my phone, start going.
Speaker 1:And, I've probably been, I don't know, I've probably been at least eighteen days or maybe even twenty days this month. So it's great and I was surprised by how fast I felt. So the first day I felt like I didn't belong. I felt awkward, I don't know anybody here, I'm walking in. Some of the machinery I recognize, some I don't.
Speaker 1:I have to like, you know, find, get back into a routine. I have to find which exercise I'm gonna do. There's all these kind of insecurities and questions. But after a week, I kind of felt like I belonged. But I wonder if that's because it was easier for me.
Speaker 1:You know? I had this, you know, I'm relatively, I was already relatively in shape. So there's a big difference between going in where you feel like, oh maybe I'm a few pounds overweight and going in and being two hundred pounds overweight. There's a big difference between, you know, going in even as a white male compared to, you know, there's a big difference going in and feeling like, well, I've done these exercises before, so I'm not completely out of my element. And I'm wondering how I mean, habits like that achievable because of privilege and context and other things?
Speaker 1:Like, how much does that play into it? And, you know, if someone is walking in and they're two hundred pounds overweight, is you know, do they still have the same chance of progress and success? It just feels like such a big mountain for them to go over.
Speaker 2:For sure. Yeah. They're so this is one reason why I think starting with small habits is so incredibly important because a lot of the time when we think about the outcome that you want, so just to continue your weight loss or exercise example.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Everybody gets wrapped up in like, oh, I wanna lose a 100 pounds or I wanna, you know, lose 20 pounds or whatever the number is. But you forget about there are like all these little logistical and emotional details that come along with starting a new habit. Yeah. So, you know, I'll often tell the story about I have this reader who he end up losing over a 100 pounds. And, one of the first things he did was he went to the gym, but he wasn't allowed to stay for longer than five minutes.
Speaker 2:So Okay. He drove to the gym, got out of the car, did half an exercise, got back in the car, drove home. And it sounds ridiculous to people. It sounds silly because it's like, well, clearly, exercising for five minutes is not gonna get you in shape. Like, that's not but what you realize is he was mastering the art of showing up.
Speaker 2:Right? He was becoming the type of person that drove to the gym every day.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And when you're in that state, right, for him at that point, that was the biggest shift was can I can I just become the type of person who gets in here, right, who overcomes the uncertainty or feeling uncomfortable or feeling judged? And all those things are very real hurdles to building a habit. You know? Like, there's there are all these little questions that need to be answered for something like that. Like, okay.
Speaker 2:I wanna go to the gym. Well, what time am I gonna go? Am I gonna go before work or after work? Yeah. What gym will I go to?
Speaker 2:What route am I gonna take to get there? Do I need to bring a water bottle, or is there, like, a water fountain at the gym?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And all those little questions like that, like, you know, whether or not you, there's a water fountain at the gym, it sounds small, but if you already feel uncomfortable and feel like you don't belong, and then you always forget to bring your water bottle and you're like, ugh, there's nothing ever and there's never anything to drink there. That's enough friction to get you to quit in the beginning. Yeah. Starting with something simple like, all I'm gonna do is I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna do one exercise for five minutes and then I'm gonna go. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:That I think is a good way to start. And it reminds me of what Steven Pressfield wrote. I think it was in the war of art where he said something to the effect of, like, if you sit down each day at the computer and you do your writing, at some point at first, it feels uncomfortable, but at some point, that becomes your territory. And I really like that phrasing of it because for an animal, for a wolf or something, a a play a piece of land does not become their territory unless they spend time in
Speaker 1:it. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Right? Unless they are there each day. Yeah. It has to become comfortable first. And so for many people building habits, whether that's getting into the gym or going to the yoga studio or sitting your butt in the chair and writing, you need to make that space your territory.
Speaker 2:And at the very first step is not getting a result. It's spending time there. It's making that little bit of land a zone where you feel like this is where I belong each day.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's a big emotional hurdle to cross before you even worry about any of the physical or like actual technical things to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, the other thing that helped is I went with my wife and it's funny because I felt like, you know, I'm like, mister confident, but she she was like at one point she's like Justin you are so nervous right now. Like she could tell how nervous I was. And I thought I was like keeping it all together.
Speaker 1:And it just reminded me of like I've been at gyms from the time I was in grade nine all the way through college. It wasn't like it was unfamiliar, but I was nervous. Because I was unfamiliar. There had been a seven year gap and now I was like exploring this again, about what these people are thinking about me. Wow, that guy looks like he's way more fit than me.
Speaker 1:You know, like all these thoughts go through your head. And so, yeah, I think kind of figuring out how you can like make a step and sometimes maybe it's like going with somebody. So you at least have some emotional because it's emotional. It's nice to have someone to kind of share the emotional burden. Right?
Speaker 2:For sure. Well, if you come the thing that ultimately, what you're looking to do is, like we just said, feel like it's part of your territory. And because there are other people in that space, what that also means is you're looking to feel like you're part of the tribe Yes. Who goes there. Right?
Speaker 2:That you're you belong with the other people who are in that room.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, so it helps to what what is a tribe? Well, it's a group of people that you get along with, that you bond with, that you belong to over something else, over some shared interest. And in other words, it's a group in a lot of ways of friends, friends who share some kind of interest. So these are your gym friends. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, if you go with your wife, then you automatically have at least one person in the tribe that you are friends with, that you do belong with. Yeah. And so I think that helps you get over that hurdle a little bit. You're not you're no longer facing that challenge alone. You know?
Speaker 2:Before, it was like, I am trying to get fit, now it is we are trying to get fit. Yeah. And that helps a lot with the kind of the mental feeling of like, do I belong or not?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I've also found, sorry, I don't mean to stay on this too long, but it's so fresh that the other thing I found myself doing because I'm interested in the emotional friction behind habits. And so the other thing I was doing is I was going in there and I'm uncomfortable, so I'm trying to act really tough. But I'm not tough at all. I'm like, but I'm, you know, when people look at me, I'm kind of like scowling when like I'm not being friendly, I'm not being myself.
Speaker 1:And I was thinking about that and thinking like, when you're kind of inward focused and you're in a new environment and you're trying to develop a new habit, but you're inward focused, it really is, it doesn't really help. And so I had to kind of turn that around and go, okay, I gotta start being friendly. I gotta start saying hi to these people. Because if I wave at this person and it feels good, like they respond with a smile, and that happens again next time, and again next time, that's a little bit of a reward for me. That's gonna keep me going to the gym.
Speaker 1:But if I keep going here with this tough scowl on my face, and it's hard because you you feel like you don't belong. You feel nervous and you kind of default to these old these weird behaviors. But I and it took a little bit of time, but I've realized, okay, got now I got to get in the habit of of smiling and saying hello when I'm in the gym, not just being in my own zone and pretending I'm somebody I'm not.
Speaker 2:Well, that's one thing that helps you start to belong or become part of the rest of the tribe. You know? Like, just a friendly behavior helps you start to develop friendships with some of those other people that are there. Yeah. There was a a study that I wanted to cite in atomic habits, but I couldn't I couldn't find it to track it down, but I read about it years ago where, the YMCA ran a survey.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And when they surveyed people who were joining the gym, the thing that got them to join were, the different classes offered, the equipment that was in the gym, basically facilities and features were the things that got people in for the first time. Yeah. But then when they surveyed members who had been there for over a year, the thing that got people to stick, nobody mentioned features or facilities, everybody mentioned friendships.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And so the people who actually stayed at the gym or kept their membership were the ones who ended up developing friendships with other people there. Yeah. And I think you're right. Ultimately, the thing that gets you to come back is like, do I enjoy coming here? Does it mean I get to see some of my friends?
Speaker 2:Does it mean I get to hang out with people I like or you know, it's really the sense of belonging that gets habits to stick. And the the action itself is just kind of like something that's happening along the way.
Speaker 1:Yes. But there's a step before that that we kind of skipped over, which is like how do you even choose a habit in the first place? Like, how does that happen? In the sense of, I might not know what's good for me. So how does that come into this?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, there are a lot of ways to answer that question. So I'll just share a couple of thoughts that are that come to mind. So the first thought that comes to mind is this question from, I first heard from Seth Godin, which I think is just a great question, which is what is it for? Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And so this is a question that we need to ask ourselves when we're trying to build a new habit, which is what is this habit for? What is the what am I actually trying to achieve here?
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Because the correct habit to choose is very different based on what your goals are, what you're hoping to get as an outcome, what kind of lifestyle you want. Mhmm. And, you know, so for example, the habit of making 20 sales calls a day. Well, if what it's for is to increase revenue and to build a successful business, that's a wonderful thing. If you hate making sales calls and you wanna spend less time working and more time with your family, that could be a terrible habit to build.
Speaker 2:It just depends on what it's for. Yeah. So, that's one question to ask. But you are correct that we often don't know what we need in the moment. And I think part of that's just a challenge of life and a challenge of self awareness and knowing what you need, but life is a very complex system.
Speaker 2:And so figuring out the right thing for that is sometimes just impossible or too many moving parts.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, I tend to default to two possible answers. The first answer is we all need things that are so boring that we don't think about them, but are incredibly important for showing up each day. So did you sleep eight hours? Are you drinking enough water? Are you spending a little bit of time walking outside or getting a little bit of sunlight?
Speaker 2:Do you exercise consistently? Whatever form is interesting to you. Mhmm. Are you spending some time reading and soaking up new ideas? Now I'm not saying you have to do all that stuff every day.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But my point is like, those are things that most people would be like, yeah, of course, you should sleep and read more books and exercise. Everybody knows that's good. Yeah. But your time is almost never going to be wasted by making sure you do one of those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Right? It's a it's a fundamental that's worth spending time on, that's worth coming back to, that's worth reminding yourself of even if you aren't sure the ideal perfect place to focus in your life. Yeah. So that's the first answer.
Speaker 2:Come back to the fundamentals. The second answer is, more broad. I can't I can't be specific with it because it depends on each person, but the broad application is what I would call broad funnel type filter. So whenever you're trying to figure out where to focus, you need a really broad range of research. Try to get as many options as possible, then apply a really tight, strict filter to it and just focus on the one or two best options that you found.
Speaker 2:Okay. So for example, I just finished, Atomic Habits a few months ago. So now I'm thinking, should I write a second book? If I should, what should that be about? You know?
Speaker 2:And I don't know right now. So I'm in the broad funnel stage. So I wanna lay out as many options as possible. I wanna brainstorm a thousand titles. I wanna look at all the top books on Amazon.
Speaker 2:I wanna browse my best performing tweets and see if there's a possible thread for a book idea in there. Mhmm. I wanna look everywhere I can and just list all of that stuff in the same spreadsheet. And maybe I got 1,200 ideas on there, really broad funnel. But then I need to apply a very tight filter.
Speaker 2:Is this something I'm interested in enough to spend two or three or four years working on?
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Is it a topic of broad appeal to a general audience? Are there gonna be a lot of people that like this?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Is this something that people that I can actually turn into something actionable? You know, like, can people use this in their daily life? Is this a topic that has a lot of stories that I could tell? Right? Can I actually make this entertaining or, you know, latch on to other interesting stories to make the book readable?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So and, you know, and those are just some of the filters. But there my point is that you want some period of very broad exploration. And then once you have a lot of options, you wanna really tighten it down based on that question, what is this for? Yeah. So in my case, the question I'm using is, well, it's for writing a good book, one that's highly actionable, one that sells a lot of copies, one that people find useful and so on.
Speaker 2:And so I think if you combine that broad funnel type filter strategy and that question of what is it for, that can maybe give you some more specific answers. But even if you don't come up with something good there, you can always focus on the fundamentals.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And the other thing when you mentioned Seth Godin, he has this other line, which is people like us do things like this.
Speaker 2:I love that line. I wish I had thought it up, but Yeah. I Yeah, it's so good.
Speaker 1:It's such a great like mantra. And what's interesting about it is like for me, one thing that made me start thinking about healthy habits was hanging out with people who had healthy habits. And in some ways it was really lucky and fortunate. Like, you know, like you guys invited me to that retreat you did.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:And in some ways I'm thankful you guys invited a loser like me. Because I was like, hanging out in that group, I came and at first I was cynical and grumpy. And eventually, just looking around that group, realized, man, these people like this do things like this. And my cynicism, which before would have been like, wow, people like that do stuff like that. You know, it it went down.
Speaker 1:And then all of a sudden I was like, okay, well, if people like this do things like this, that's what I need to do. And I think, for folks that are thinking like, okay, well how do I know what good habits are? There are so many things that I would have never been, you know, what do you call it? There's like the stages of habits or whatever. But I would have never even had the cue if I had not first observed it and then noticed like, oh wait, they're doing that, they're doing that, they're doing that.
Speaker 1:I'm the odd man out. Yeah. And that's what motivated me to want to pursue some of that stuff. But if I hadn't been in that group and felt like, wait a second, if I wanna belong here, I've gotta, I gotta up my game. Right?
Speaker 1:It would have never happened. And so people like us do things like this has been really helpful for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I love that phrase. And one of the reasons I said that, oh, I wish I had thought that up is because I think it applies so deeply to a lot of the ideas in atomic habits. It applies to, how socially reinforced our habits are. I think this is you know, I I wrote about this in the book.
Speaker 2:I mean, I have a whole chapter on it. Chapter nine is all about that. Yeah. But I think I still undersold the importance of how socially reinforced our habits are. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And then it also references this, the importance of a shared identity. I think that ultimately a shared identity is really one of the most powerful forces for getting habits to stick. Mhmm. You know? Like, if you look at, if you look at it in a big way, you can look at, like, religions.
Speaker 2:You know? People religions are really interesting places to look for habits. Mhmm. People get in the habit of going to church every Sunday for fifty years
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Largely because it's reinforced. The other people in their neighborhoods go, the people on their block, go, they see their friends there. They it's a very socially reinforced habit. Yes. Same thing is true in smaller ways.
Speaker 2:Like, let's say you move into a new house and you walk outside on Tuesday night and you see all your, neighbors have their recycling bins out. Yeah. And you're like, People like us do things like this. Like, people who live in this neighborhood recycle on Tuesday nights. I guess we need to sign up for recycling.
Speaker 2:And there are really almost an infinite range of examples that are like that, both large and small
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Where our habits are we notice them because the people around us are doing them, which is what the q portion is you referenced. Yeah. We desire to do them. We crave to follow through on them because by doing the same, we fit in or signal to the other people around us, hey, I get it. I'm part of the tribe too.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It becomes easier to do it because sometimes you have friends helping you out, know, like it's like having a spotter at the gym. Yeah. Like oh, people like us to help each other out when a set is hard. Yeah. And then ultimately, it becomes satisfying because, you enjoy being praised for it.
Speaker 2:Know? Other people are like, hey, it was great to see you at church on Sunday. Or, you know, really good job on that workout today. And that feels good to be praised for fitting in. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so in that way, socially reinforced habits or, the collective identity, it hits all four stages of habit formation. Yeah. And I knew that when I was writing it, but I don't think I gave it as much importance as I should have. It's a very powerful driver of behavior in the long run.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. And I think this is why cynicism is such a toxic attitude. And you know, I'm, I guess I'm in Gen X. I'm born in 1980. There's a lot of cynicism in Gen X.
Speaker 1:Then millennials also have a little bit of this too. And actually, to be honest, everybody has it. Baby boomers have it when, if you're a 50 year old programmer and you get hired at a startup where the CEO is 20 years old, then we kinda default to cynicism. And it's such a blocker when you're trying to observe those norms. Oh wait, people like us do things like this.
Speaker 1:Cynicism allows you to go, Well yeah, people like that do stuff like that. That's good for them. That's good for James Clear. But, you know, that's not good for me. And, when I'm trying to, kind of reveal from my experience for anyone that ever watches this or listens to this is that you really do need to step outside that and at least be open to this idea that your life could get better and it could just be going, Okay, well, I'm gonna vote for who I'm gonna be today and I'm gonna vote for who I'm gonna be tomorrow and I'm gonna keep going.
Speaker 1:The other thing in the book that really helped me, and I'm probably going to butcher it so you clean up after I do it, but you show this grid. So imagine on this side of your day, it's like, okay, I make a good decision, so it goes up. And then I make another good decision, goes up. But then I make a bad decision. Like I eat a tub of ice cream.
Speaker 1:And sometimes eating the tub of ice cream is like debilitating. It's like, well, I'm done. I ate the tub of ice cream. I suck at this. I'm just gonna go get into bed and forget about it.
Speaker 1:And in your grid, you shall wait, but you're still up here. Like, you can just make another good decision and then you're back up again. And I like that idea of kinda navigating your ideas, not being so hard on ourselves. Did did I kinda get that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I so this is the I don't know if you can see it, but this is the image.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But it's it's it's this idea that, like, the difference between a good day and a bad day is often just a series of choices. Right? Yeah. And you can win each little moment. Right?
Speaker 2:You can win each decisive moment. Just because you ate the tub of ice cream doesn't mean you can't win the next moment.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And and so one thing that I was thinking about when I wrote that is this concept that I call decisive moments. This idea that there are a few choices each day, maybe somewhere between, say, five and ten that kinda determine the next chunk of time. And so so for example, there's a moment for me each morning where I sit down and either I open up Evernote and I start writing the next article I'm gonna work on. Mhmm. Or I go to ESPN and I check the latest sports news.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And what happens in the next hour is really determined by what happens in, like, the first forty five seconds. Yes. You know? Like, do I do I go to Evernote, or do I go to ESPN?
Speaker 2:And, so that is a decisive moment in my language. That's like a moment that determines if I can master those forty five seconds, then I can end up mastering the next hour that comes afterward almost automatically.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Same thing is true. There's a moment each night, like 05:15 or so. My wife gets home from work, and either we change into our workout clothes or we, like, sit on the couch and watch reruns the office and order Indian food or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And both of those nights are good nights, but the moment to master is do we change into our workout clothes or not? If we do that, it only takes a few minutes. Everything else for the next two hours is already decided. We'll get in the car. We'll drive to the gym.
Speaker 2:We'll do the reps. Like, it's all it's all pretty much done at that point. Yeah. So the reason I like bringing that up or, like, thinking about that is you start to realize there really isn't that much that you need to master. Really, you just are trying to focus your attention on a few key decisive moments throughout the day.
Speaker 2:It's kinda like applying judo to your life. You know? It's like apply the pressure and the leverage at just the right point, and then the next hour kinda falls into place automatically.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I like that because once you realize that, once you kind of identify those high leverage decision points, you can organize your day and your environment around those things. You know, if I know that those forty five seconds where I'm choosing between Evernote or ESPN is a real key moment Mhmm. Well, I could install Freedom, and then I could block ESPN from 8AM to 10AM. Mhmm. And that takes care of that decisive moment, and it increases the odds that I'm gonna open a note instead.
Speaker 2:Yes. But anyway, so little choices like that, they are easier to make once you've identified some of those key points of leverage.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And you talk about in the book, like there's some tricks too where you can make things automatic. Like, you talk about Nir Ayal buying a little device that just shuts off his internet every night at ten.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Outlet timer.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that's what's brilliant about that is like, it shuts it off, like, especially if it's in the basement or whatever, like, you're not gonna go downstairs and like fiddle around with it. And then it's just it's just that's what happens. Right? If you like, if ESPN was really killing you, you could just cancel your cable subscription.
Speaker 1:That might be a bit, but then you would you go to watch ESPN. You can't. Right? It's it's done. By the way, you mentioned this in the book too, but it's so funny how certain people's, what what is a trigger for some people is not for others.
Speaker 1:Like ESPN for me is not a that's not a temptation at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It doesn't even enter your worldview.
Speaker 1:Doesn't enter my worldview. But it shows you how identity is so much a part of this. Like if I was hanging out with a bunch of Oilers fans every single day, and this happened in the co work office. You know, there's a few people and they're watching Oilers games, you know, on on their computers. And I realized, like, if I wanna talk to them, I've gotta start watching Eulers games.
Speaker 1:So people like us do things like this. And so I started developing this habit of watching Eulers games when before I didn't even care.
Speaker 2:I think I mean, I think this is one of the reasons why sports is so tribal, why people get so emotional about it is that it becomes a connection point for the relationships. It's not even the the game is actually one would ever say that because everybody acts like the game is the thing that matters the most. Yeah. But in a weird way, it's kind of a secondary thing. You know, really like, when I think back for me, sports is a way for my brother and I to connect and for us to have something to text about and chat about throughout the week.
Speaker 2:It's a thing that you know, it's a reason for my dad and I to get together in person and to go to games and hang out. And, like, it's it's all the other stuff that it provides that makes it so deeply meaningful. Yes. And then you end up assigning a lot of that emotion to how the team does on the field as well and what the score is on the scoreboard. But yeah, it's a good example there.
Speaker 1:On that topic then, and this is Corey Stone is asking this in chat, but there's a lot of people on Twitter that asked us too. Given that example that you just gave, if your meaningful relationships are engaging in habits that may, might not be good for you or that you want to change, how do you navigate that? So if you're really feeling like I gotta, I gotta stop watching sports, it's just like, I get a little bit and then I just go crazy, but I still wanna have a relationship with my brother. Right. This is where it gets complex, especially if you're married to somebody.
Speaker 1:Like, if your wife is is like, your wife is at least somewhat inclined to wanna go to the gym, I'm guessing. But if she was like, no, I just wanna watch Netflix and order Indian food. That's all I wanna do. Yeah. How do you start to navigate those things?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Those are good questions. I mean, it's really hard because especially if it's a person who you want to stay in your life. You know? I think, first of all, I just wanna say I so I have some things I wanna add to this, but I feel like it's worth noting that this question comes up a lot.
Speaker 2:And I think the reason it comes up a lot is because we all know that actually there isn't a good easy answer, and that it's like just a hard part of life. You know what I mean? Like everybody wants it's one of those things we want to keep asking about in hopes that, oh, maybe there'll be an easy way to resolve this. But I think we all know, like, it's it's a challenge. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Now that said, there are a few things you can do. So first thing is, sometimes your friends and family want to do something different than how you wanna change. So like you're you wanna stick to a new diet, they wanna eat the old way. Mhmm. Or, something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, you wanna start doing yoga, they couldn't care less about yoga. They don't wanna go to class with you. Yeah. Things like that.
Speaker 2:Well, if that's the case, then for certain habits, you don't have to, like, fire your friends and family to be able to do that. But what you can what you do need or what can be really useful is having, like, a sacred space where that occurs, where I'm not saying you need to do this with me, but just don't make it harder on me. Right? Just don't conflict with. So, you know, the yoga example is an easier one where it's like, well, you maybe you need to go to a yoga studio away from, the friends and family that aren't interested and start to build friendships with people who are.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm not saying you need to get rid of your old friends, but maybe it'd be helpful to build a couple new ones who are into yoga so that you have like a safe space for that habit to live. Yeah. So that's one thing. Then there's the second piece, which is sometimes you're building a habit that you do want the person to like join you on, to come along with you. You know, you're working out and you would love for your spouse to join you at the gym or something like that.
Speaker 2:And, everybody know like, it would be good, but they feel maybe they feel less comfortable there than you do, or maybe they feel you know, you, were previously an athlete and they were not. And so you feel kind of comfortable in the gym. You've been there before in years past, but for them, it's like new and weird, and you know, they feel like they're being judged and whatever. Mhmm. If you're dealing with a case like that, the the thing that I try to keep in mind, and I can tell you from working with my own family, it can be incredibly useful, is praise the good, ignore the bad.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. It's very hard to do. It's very the the difficult part about it is not doing it on an individual basis. It's that this needs to be the new lifestyle for you. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So when they do the thing that you're asking them to do Yeah. Don't basically another way to phrase this is don't criticize people for doing what you were hoping they would. You know? Like, there are so many times when the introverted kid in the family will come down to the dinner table and it's like, oh, look who decided to join us. And it's like, well, they finally did the thing that you were hoping they would do and engage with everybody.
Speaker 2:And now they just feel like they're getting criticized for it. Or, you go to the gym and your spouse decides to join you and they do a few sets and then they feel like they're done. And you say, Well, that was a pretty short workout. And what you should be saying is, I think it's great that you got in here tonight, right? Like you weren't feeling it, but you were still able to make it in.
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 2:so praise the good, ignore the bad. And if you can do that in the long run, what ends up happening is everybody likes feeling praised. Everybody likes feeling rewarded. They like to it feels satisfying to do something that the people who love you and who are around you praise you for. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And so at first, go to the gym and they say, hey. I'm really proud of you for getting in here tonight. Good job. Yeah. And it doesn't seem like much.
Speaker 2:But then after two months and three months and ten months of that, you turn around a year later, and they might never even say it. But implicitly, what they've realized is, damn, every time I go to the gym, it feels good. They, like, they compliment me. Yeah. And that so now all of a sudden, you start to associate going to the gym with feeling good.
Speaker 2:And this is a really long game play because it takes a while for that to reinforce itself. But, you know, same thing like the introverted kid at the table sits down, and they say something that happened today. And it's like, oh, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing that with us. You know?
Speaker 2:And like, on that individual night, that one night at dinner doesn't count for a lot. But if every time they speak up, they're rewarded for it, then all of a sudden, now they have a reason to start doing that more in the months and years to come.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it takes a while, but I think that that's like an effective way to gradually nudge people in the right direction.
Speaker 1:Yeah. There's someone in the chat that's saying they need to apply that idea to themself to avoid feeling guilty for not doing enough. So instead of reinforcing, oh, you idiot, you didn't go to the gym again, you fatty. You know, like that's not helpful. There's the self talk.
Speaker 1:It can work with self talk as well.
Speaker 2:This is why I think, small habits can be so useful in some ways, even on the bad days, because like, let's say you're in that situation you just said where it's like, oh, you know, skip the gym again. Well, you can still do one pushup or one air squat or whatever before you go do a set of 10 air squats before you hop in bed tonight. Mhmm. And it's not gonna transform your body, but that's not really the point. The point is to prove to yourself that it wasn't a good day.
Speaker 2:I didn't have the best motivation or energy. I had a long day at work, but I still am not the type of person who miss work misses workouts. Right? I still prove to myself. I still cast a vote for being that kind of person.
Speaker 2:I didn't let a day go by without doing nothing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, that can count for a lot in the long run. And, so sometimes small habits are less about the outcome they deliver and more about the identity they reinforce.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I've actually found, you know, another thing I, I try to I'm implementing in the new year is I decided to quit drinking alcohol. And right now it's ostensibly for this goal of hitting a revenue mark. Once I hit the goal, then I can have a drink. But the deeper motivation for me was I just realized like, it just makes it a depressant.
Speaker 1:It's like, there's a bunch of reasons that it's not good for me. And so my, my excuse or my way of trying it out is saying, well, I'm going for this goal. But it's been interesting in social situations because all my friends still drink and that's fine But with sometimes just sharing the goal, Oh, I'm just doing this because I'm going after this thing. And you talk about how goals are sometimes helpful in setting your direction. You know, like, okay, I'm pointed this way now.
Speaker 1:And sometimes sharing that with people is helpful. The other thing is I think eventually if I just keep doing this, just for me to say, well, I'm a non drinker now.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I can still go and have, my favorite. And it's also nice having a thing that you like. So my favorite non alcoholic drink is a non alcoholic Caesar. It's like a Bloody Mary. And to have that drink, it's like kind of spicy.
Speaker 1:There's a reward there. I also have this social crutch that I can use in a situation, you know. And if somebody asks me about it, I also have this new identity, which is, Oh, I'm a non drinker now. I just don't drink. And you talked about that.
Speaker 1:There's some research behind that. I know you've mentioned it a lot, but it's like, I'm trying to quit smoking versus I'm a non smoker, right? Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Correct. Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think that that can be really helpful.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Having, I think what you're explaining here, the situation that you're going through, this experience you're having is kind of it's illustrating this process of identity change. Right? It started with, oh, I'm just gonna put it off for a little while while I'm attacking this goal.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But then you're casting so many votes for like, you know what? I haven't drank and like I'm kind of benefiting from it. Maybe this is part of my identity now. Yeah. I'm a non drinker.
Speaker 2:And so anyway, yeah, I I think you're definitely on the right track there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And actually, this is a good time to bring up two Twitter questions. Maria Aldree asks, you know, how do you maintain habits? Ask him about maintaining habits for people with depression, anxiety, or attention deficit. Do you want to try to tackle that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I've tried to be careful about saying that Atomic Habits is about building habits and breaking bad habits, building good ones. But it's not a book on addiction. It's not a book on depression. It's not a book about anxiety or ADHD or any of these other, disorders or ailments.
Speaker 2:And I don't consider myself an expert on addiction. However, something interesting has happened. So I published the the book, and I have had a ton of speaking requests recently, and so I've been doing speeches at conferences and companies and different events and whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so many times, I get someone that comes up to me afterward or that asks a question during q and a that talks about how useful the book was for their son who had ADHD or their cousin was a meth addict and then was able to like start to, you know, right the ship by employing some of these techniques or whatever. Yeah. Which is great, which is very gratifying. I still stand by my original statement. I'm not an expert on addiction.
Speaker 2:I don't wanna like take a strong stance with this stuff. Mhmm. But what I've realized is that the principles that I lay out in atomic habits are really about how human behavior works. It's about how habits are formed. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And whether that habit is something extreme, like an addiction or picking your skin or OCD or ADHD or whatever, or whether it's something more moderate, like meditating for three minutes a day.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:The fundamentals tend to be similar. And so I'm not gonna say that the book offers a prescription for overcoming addictions, but what I will say is you'd be hard pressed to find tactics in the book that wouldn't at least help. Right? That wouldn't at least nudge people in the right direction. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I have heard from a few readers who specifically have said that, they had ADHD, and that they found the book very helpful. Mhmm. Environment design for whatever reason has been something that's come up multiple times for folks who have struggled with that. Yeah. So you know, it's I think it's kind of like if you're the type of person who is less likely to just remember to do it, right, or like just follow your to do list, if that's not you
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Then structuring an environment where it's easier to see the cues of your good habits, less likely to see the distractions, less friction between you and the good behavior, more friction between you and the bad ones. Yeah. If you place yourself in that space, it's much more likely that you're gonna fall through. So Yeah. You know, those are things that I talk about in chapter six and twelve.
Speaker 2:But I think that the book applies, but I don't pitch it as like a prescription for someone dealing with a more serious issue.
Speaker 1:Totally. Yeah. I would say, again, I'm not an expert either, but as someone who has been dealing with depression the past couple of years, Having a professional that you go to that deals with this stuff all the time, like a therapist, is so helpful. And the therapist will be very interested if you read James' book. So I said to my therapist, she starts way back here and then she says, So what's new with you?
Speaker 1:I'm like, Well, I read this book and I'm thinking, Oh, what are you thinking about doing with that? Oh, I'm thinking about maybe quitting alcohol. Oh, well that's There's some reinforcement from the professionals. And likewise with my doctor, when I had depression and I went to my physician, she said, she gave me two prescriptions. Quit drinking alcohol and quit, taking any kind of cannabis.
Speaker 1:And the reason is, she says, those are going to make you feel bad. Now the trigger in that case was my doctor. It's nice when you have a doctor saying, listen, this is your prescription. Oh, and double the amount of exercise I was doing. So three things.
Speaker 1:So I did that for three months and then I went back to my old habits. But now I have that memory of what it was like for three months. And it's been a powerful trigger for me to When I am starting to notice my mood go down, remembered. My doctor's prescription was quit drinking, quit eating edibles, and doubling my exercise. That's been helpful for me personally.
Speaker 1:So I think if you're reading the book, let your professional in your life know about it. It's good. One thing I want you to do is, because I love the imagery, but and this is probably unfair to you, is to give the ice cube example, but use Celsius instead of Fahrenheit.
Speaker 2:So this is an example from the first chapter of the book. And I actually as a side note, I thought about this. I was like, man, we're gonna have to get these changed for the foreign additions. Like, we're gonna it's gonna need to be. But anyway, dedicated.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The core idea is that the process of changing your habits is well, it's similar to what we talked about early on, that there's often this valley of death, that there's this period where you're just kinda building up latent potential, but you're not really releasing any of the results yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I like to equate it to the process of heating up an ice cube, you know? So you've got this ice cube sitting on a table, right? And so let's say it's like negative three degrees in there, So you're at negative three, it's cold. You can see your breath. The ice cube's sitting there.
Speaker 2:You heat it up negative two, negative one. Still, there's this ice cube sitting there. Nothing has happened.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Right?
Speaker 2:Then you go from negative one to zero. And all of a sudden, you have this one degree shift, no different than any of the other shifts that came before it, but you have this phase transition. Right? And, like, the ice cube starts melting. And that, I think, is indicative of what it often feels like to change a habit.
Speaker 2:You're making these little improvements, you're trying to make these 1% changes, these one degree shifts each day. And you're like, it's really easy to get, frustrated or even depressed at that point. Know, it's like, I've been running for three weeks. How come I can't see a change in my body? Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know? Or I've been writing blog posts for six months now. How come this site isn't popular yet?
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And the key point there is your work was not being wasted. It's just being stored. Yeah. Complaining about sticking to a habit for two months or three months or even six months or a year and not having the outcome that you want is kind of like complaining about heating an ice cube from negative three to negative one degrees and it not melting yet. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know? Like, the the work was not wasted. It's just being stored. And I love that quote that's in that same section from Jacob Rees who it it hangs in the locker room of the San Antonio's who won five NBA championships. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it says, essentially, when I feel like giving up, I think about the stone cutter who continues to hammer away at the stone a 100 times without it splitting. And then finally, on the hundred and first blow, it cracks in two. Yeah. And I know that it wasn't the 100 that can't there I know it wasn't the hundred and first swing that did it, but the 100 that came before. Right?
Speaker 2:And, like, it's that same idea. You know? The reason the site takes off is not because of the one viral article. It's because of the 55 that you wrote in the weeks and months prior. The reason that you see a change in your body is not because today's workout radically transform you.
Speaker 2:It's because you've been sticking to it for eight months now. Yes. And it's really about showing up, continue to put those swings in, continue to raise the temperature by one degree, and eventually you hit that phase transition where you can see the results of your work.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that image has been so powerful in my life. I've been telling people about this book and I actually notice there's kind of like a coffee shop test. Like if I hear people talking about something from internet culture in a coffee shop, like real people, something's hit. And Atomic Habits is like that.
Speaker 1:Like it hit the kind of mainstream. And that image of just raising the temperature a little bit every day. Now I feel like I'm a few months into this and I'm a little bit kind of like evangelical about it. Like I'm saying, now I'm like, God, like my life is so much better. And it's because of just these little changes over time in the same direction, now I can see it.
Speaker 1:Now I can see that I feel better. Wow, man, quitting alcohol, that was one thing. And then, wow, showing up at the gym three or four times a week, that really helps. And wow, reading a real book every night before I go to bed. All of these things keep adding up and do make a meaningful difference in your life.
Speaker 1:Even though way back when, when you're starting, you feel like, wow, nothing's gonna help me now. I wanna be clear that these ideas have meaningfully impacted my life. So I'm, yeah, I'm really thankful you wrote that book. I'm thankful you talked to me in the airport. It's been really great for me.
Speaker 2:No. That's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. And, ultimately, that's what the whole thing is for. Right?
Speaker 2:I mean, it just it makes it feel like it was worth the effort to spend a few years writing it and working on it. So that's great.
Speaker 1:So before you go, some people are asking like what recommendations for systems, services, tools, trackers. I know you have a new one coming out. Do you wanna talk about that?
Speaker 2:Sure. Yeah. So I got it right here next to me actually. So this is a habit journal and we we just launched it two weeks ago and it's got it's basically a dot grid notebook. So if you're into bullet journaling or you're into keeping a notebook or use a notebook, the vast majority of it are dot grid pages.
Speaker 2:So you'll be able to use it like any normal one. But then at the back, there's a section with a habit tracker templates. And I don't know if you can see that very well, but I've been using it. For example, this is this month, so you can see me tracking my habits on here. And so anyway, those templates are in the back, and they're also perforated, so you can tear them out and put them on your desk or put them on your kitchen counter or your refrigerator or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then, and then at the very beginning of the book, there is a section called one line per day. So I've been using it for what happened today, and so I've been writing down what happened each day. And, there are 31 lines, so one for each day of the month, and, there are 12 of them. So by the time you get to the end of the year, you should be able to flip through and see, you know, if you I'm doing what happened today.
Speaker 2:Sean Blanc does, what's the highlight of the day. Yeah. Some other ones that I've seen are, you know, what am I grateful for? Or you could use it as like a productivity thing. You could say like, what's my most important task today?
Speaker 2:Things like that. So there are a lot of examples in the back of the notebook who I have like 16 pages of examples of how to use it. But, but anyway, it's, called the habit journal and, yeah, I'm excited about it. I think it'll be a good tool to help people build better habits.
Speaker 1:Cool. And a lot of folks I've heard from a lot of folks that really like the audio books. So if you folks aren't readers, go check out the audio book. People like us read atomic habits. So thanks again for your time, James.
Speaker 1:Really appreciate it, man.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Thank you.
Speaker 1:There you go. Hope that was helpful for you. Like I said, I really recommend the book atomichabits.com. That journal that he's talking about is also available there. Folks, it's 2019 And if you are tired of bootstrapping alone, I've been running an online community, for bootstrappers, solopreneurs, indie makers, and it's called Mega Maker Club.
Speaker 1:Go to megamaker.co/club if you want more information. It's not open right now, but you can sign up for the waiting list. And I will talk to you next episode. Thanks for listening.
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