Episode 4
· 35:26
Always has to be one person drinking green tea.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And wearing slippers. Someone has to be the podcast dad.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. The podcast dad. I like that.
Speaker 2:Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Justin.
Speaker 1:Well, I was just gonna say that when you're developing a new product, there's always trade offs. So everybody has a grand vision of what they want. And no matter how you're building it, whether you're building it in Rails or PHP or dot net or it doesn't really matter. There's always trade offs. You're never going to get a 100% of your vision in version one.
Speaker 1:And so if WordPress for example gets you're able to get that MVP, that minimum viable product and it's the bare bones of what you want to present to the customer, then can actually you have something to show them and they can even use it you're actually probably on par with the other folks that might have built something in Rails or might have built something in dot net or might have built something in PHP and it's important to realize that no matter what you build in it, there's always going to be some sort of trade off. Now there's some cases like where you might be building something that requires some serious engineering and some really crazy stuff. But most especially business to business apps are just forms. It's like here's a form, we collect the data and then we do something with it and then we display it. So if you can get there with something like WordPress you're actually, in a lot of cases I think you're going to be in the same place as someone who built MVP in something else.
Speaker 1:And the only difference is that if you built MVP in something else, it probably took you way more time and way more money. And that's where people don't want to rebuild things. They always say, No, don't ever rebuild what you've built. Just keep going with what you've got. But imagine if you spent a fraction of that and then you realized, You know what?
Speaker 1:We do want to rebuild this from scratch in maybe something more robust. Well then, now you can do it. You've spent no money on your product development so far. And you can you could if you wanted to rebuild it, you know spend a bunch of money and rebuild it the way that you know customers are showing you you need to rebuild it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think it's a perfect fit for like the lean approach where the whole idea is to reduce waste as much as possible and experiment run validated learning experiments where you can figure out what ideas resonate with your customers. And if you're trying to figure those things out through custom development, a lot of effort goes into those cycles. Whereas with WordPress, it could just be a matter of tweaking the plugin settings or installing a couple different plugins instead of the one you have. And, you know, you can immediately roll on to the next kind of the next iteration of experiments.
Speaker 2:Okay. So, we were kind of just talking about how, WordPress is really useful for validating ideas, getting an MVP out the door and learning from it. And then so let's say you built an MVP with WordPress and you've learned that you've got a solution that customers are willing to give you money for. So what is the next step? Like when you set out and build this MVP with WordPress, is the intention to eventually replace WordPress with a custom app down the road?
Speaker 2:Or do you kind of stick with WordPress as long as possible until you basically hit the limits of its capabilities? I'm I guess there's probably, an argument for both approaches, but I don't know, Dalen, if you have, like, any thoughts on that. Like when you go into building a product with WordPress, what's the goal?
Speaker 3:You know what, I think not so much using WordPress but using sort of the plugin kind of approach where you're looking for existing solutions and you're like in the form of a plugin and you're tying them in. Like Gravity Forms or it happens or WooCommerce or whatever. I think that will probably only get you so far, but what I think is so great or one of the things that's so great about WordPress is it's really just, it's just PHP, right? Like it's not like it's some crazy, obfuscated Right. Crazy thing, right?
Speaker 3:Like I've built so many sites where I've got, okay, this chunk is WordPress and here's a plugin, but you know what? I need something that isn't, isn't, that I can't find. Like I need to do something that isn't supported by anything I can find. And I'll just write, I'll either write it into the theme, like as part of like the functions. Php or I'll create a custom plugin is super simple Like to do, it's so easy to create a plugin, you just create a file, add some metadata to the file and throw it in the plugins folder and you've got a plugin, right?
Speaker 3:And then start, then you can do anything like it's just PHP which I so anything you can build, I mean, you need to start building like custom database queries or this and that, and you don't even need to follow sort of the way WordPress does stuff because it's just PHP, right? Everything still works. So I've done a lot of that where a client wants this and that because WordPress does it and that's great and they get a CMS and they get all the benefits of sort of WordPress and the security and the user control system, but we need some custom stuff. Need to tie into this custom database and we need to do this and that or there's an API that we need to use or whatever. And then I can just I can just integrate it in and it's seamless, right?
Speaker 3:Like, you build a plugin, it appears in the WordPress admin, it looks like it all fits, you can tie it in with the UI really easily and they've built, they've made it really easy to do that. So it looks like it's part of WordPress, but it's all just custom, right? So I don't know if you'll ever need to get away from it. If you start that way, I mean, I'm sure there are instances where you'd need to, but I think you could probably just keep building on it, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sounds like you're sort of suggesting that once you kind of hit maybe the limits of, like you said, what your plugin does or whatever, can WordPress is so extensible that you can pretty much use it as a web framework that you would like, you know, anyone else who's gonna go out and build an app is probably gonna use, like I mentioned earlier, Django or Rails or something like that. And at a certain point with all the low level hooks and plug in API and things, you can you can essentially think of WordPress as another framework. And the advantage is that you've already got, you know, your product basically built. You just need to extend a few pieces here and there and you could potentially keep your product running off of WordPress long term.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, even looking at the front end of things like the the whole template system or the theme system that they've got. Themes makes it sound kinda hokey like it's but I mean Mhmm. Really, it's like whatever like on the front end, whatever you wanna do, like HTML, CSS, JavaScript, any sort of crazy UI you can come up with, like you just write it into the, like you're writing regular HTML and CSS, So it's not like you're ever limited. Like I remember back when, I remember talking to different people where you talk about WordPress and they'd be like, Oh, every WordPress site looks the same and I can always tell when it's a WordPress site.
Speaker 3:That's, I mean, that's just not the case anymore. Like sure, a lot of blogs follow the same sort of format and you can usually tell when it's like a vanilla out of the box WordPress blog that uses one of the like six or seven themes that everybody uses if they don't customize it. I mean, I've built sites where honestly, and even people who are WordPress developers wouldn't be able to tell that I'm using WordPress because there's just no way to tell, right?
Speaker 1:How far do you think you could take that if you're building an app on WordPress? Because this is actually there's not that many people doing it. Like there's there's a few examples I can think of. I'd like to hear some if you have other examples of of folks that are doing this. How far do you think you could take it?
Speaker 1:Is there any like, are there security concerns? Are there growth concerns? Is there database concerns? Like, what would be the things what would be the downside to, you know, building your app on WordPress and then trying to actually run it long term?
Speaker 3:Right. You know what, I think whether you're using WordPress or like you come across the same issues when you're scaling, right? Like I think the minute that you've got a 100,000 people all of a sudden looking at your app, you're going to have issues whether you're using static HTML files or I mean, something with WordPress, whether it's making database calls and stuff is going to be more, there's going to be more of that, but I think you're going to have to deal with this sort of thing anyways. And going back to the security thing, like one of the things I find with WordPress, I think the fact, the fact that WordPress is so popular is both sort of a good thing and a bad thing for security. In that it's because it's, because it's so popular, it's a target.
Speaker 3:But I think that's kind of what makes it strong because all the holes that can possibly be found in it are found right away. And they're patched, right? Like instantly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Where
Speaker 3:as long as you're keeping up to date, like if you're running a three year old install WordPress, you're screwed. But if you're keeping up to date with, with the releases, it's like if they, they release something and there's a hole in it, like people find it and they exploit it and then they fix it. Whereas something like, like other CMSs maybe that don't have like the market share that WordPress does, I mean, there could be like insane security gaps in these things that no one even knows about because they just, no one's trying to get in, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they never come up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, which I think opens you up to a whole other thing, right? Where, and I've always said this to clients when they bring this up, they say, Well, what about security concerns? And every time you get in a room with the IT department of any sort of organization, this is, they spend two hours talking about this and really it comes down to, I mean, it's gonna be the same regardless of what platform you use. I mean, write something in Vanilla PHP or asp.net or Rails or whatever it is, you're gonna have to deal with this. Like if you're scaling, scaling is scaling regardless of what platform you're using, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah. And you're gonna have to do all the same sorts of things, right?
Speaker 1:And you know the other thing I was just thinking about is that increasingly no matter what platform you're using, you're using off the shelf stuff. So you're using other people's gems or other people's plugins or other people's code. And the concern I always have is you're just getting this off some website and you might copy and paste some code or whatever. And you might have a bunch of developers working on something and you don't know if that's tested or if there's some sort of backdoor that's going to come back to bite you. But the one thing about the WordPress community is all of that's in the open.
Speaker 1:So if there's a problem with plugin, you hear about it right away. It's almost overnight. What was that? Tiny thumb, is that right? There was some It security concerns with was overnight, everyone just switched over, everything was updated.
Speaker 1:And as long as you were attentive, you would hear about it and you could deal with it. But I worry about stuff we might have pulled off the shelf a couple years ago and it's still running, but people don't realize there's a security hole in it and we would never know.
Speaker 3:What's interesting though? Sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2:I was just going to say, what's kind of funny though is, Justin, the situation you just described there is usually what ends up happening with your own custom rolled code where, you know, you can build something from scratch and just because, you know, not a lot of other people are using it and you kind of forget about it and the code is stale, there's still tons of, like there's possibly security problems there that you don't know about. So even if you're looking at like a WordPress plugin that maybe isn't doesn't have wide adoption or maybe isn't as actively maintained as some other plugins Mhmm. It's probably, still better off than if you were to write your own piece of code to do that functionality and just let it kind of rot in the back of your app without getting touched at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good point. There's not very many situations where you build a bunch of functionality and then there's thousands of developers around the world constantly updating it and just letting you know, Oh, this is updated. Fix that patch.
Speaker 3:Even if you've ever, like if you guys have ever used any of the, like the really popular plugins like Gravity Forms or any of the WooCommerce stuff, like go on their support forums and there's literally thousands of posts of like, Hey, I found this bug. Hey, this is causing me issues. Like all these crazy edge cases and they fix them all, right? I mean, all of them, but all the major ones, right? So it's like, it's almost like you're saying, Okay, I'm gonna go with this platform that I know is gonna be solid and if there are issues, they're gonna be fixed.
Speaker 3:Like it's not like and I mean, there's some rules of thumb like you don't install a plugin that hasn't been updated in six years, right? Because that just doesn't make sense, right? But I mean the plugin repository like at wordpress.org is pretty good about like if it's in there, I think it's pretty safe to say that it's been vetted by the people at Automatic it's solid. If as long as it's kept up to date because there's a lot of them on there that aren't and actually now they've got a thing where there's a warning that says this plugin hasn't been updated in two years so be careful. So I think as long as you're just paying attention to that stuff, you should be okay.
Speaker 3:I think where you get into trouble is where you build something for someone or you have someone build you something and then you just let it out into the world and forget about it, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like with WordPress and that's the one thing that I think needs to be solved is this like a way to keep and there's ways to do it but I think out of the box there needs to be a way to like keep WordPress airtight up to date just without even having to think about it, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. So as we kind of wind this down, what are some examples, some other examples of folks that have built some sort of product or app on WordPress that you can think of?
Speaker 3:Well you know what I did I was doing some poking around like before we started and there's not many. I mean there's a bunch of people using WordPress to run like a SaaS kind of thing, like a software as a service. I can find lots of examples of that. Like you've got guys who are doing like WordPress, like the whole multisite set up your own WordPress install thing like WP Engine, what's the other one? Pagely, I think.
Speaker 2:Pagely, yeah, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, page.lyware and really all they're doing is they're providing like just rock solid hosting and you go in and you set up an account, you pay them a monthly fee and they take care of making sure WordPress is airtight. For a lot of people, that's really valuable, right? And then you've got things like really, I think the best way to make money off WordPress is sort of those are either a software service or something or selling plugins and themes like that's kind of where the money is, I think. Like if you come up with some crazy functionality, like something like Gravity Forms or something, I'm sure those guys are probably doing all right. But you know what, as far as like people who are using it to build actual products out there, I don't know.
Speaker 3:I'm sure there's lots of them but I don't know how vocal they're being about the fact they're using WordPress because there's not that much out
Speaker 2:That's a good point, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, there was a few and I can't remember the names off the top of my head now but there's a couple, two different companies that were providing websites for restaurants they were using WordPress multisite. They had customized it heavily. And they were also doing what was interesting, one of them wasn't using the WordPress admin, like the WordPress back end at all. Were doing everything on the front end.
Speaker 1:And so you would do like, you would edit your website on the front end and, you know, modify all your settings on the front end. You'd never see, you know, the the regular WordPress back end. And I don't know how successful they were, but they were the first ones I'd heard of that were using WordPress as an application platform.
Speaker 3:I think that's WordPress or no, Restaurant Engine, I think, is the one you're talking about.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, if you go to restaurantengine.com, I think yeah, that's all WordPress multi site and it looks really good. Like they've spent a bunch of time on the experience and making it slick and I'm sure they're probably doing pretty well but yeah, if you think about it like offering that as a service to people like, Hey, click here. Like it's almost like what's the blogging or the CMS Squarespace where you pay a monthly fee.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah.
Speaker 3:And you pick a theme and you like it's and it's pretty limited with what you can do but it's super slick like the UI is beautiful and it's really easy to set up. So yeah, mean what these guys have done, they've just picked a niche like restaurants and they said, Hey, we're going make it super easy for people to restaurant website and they're just using WordPress. They probably didn't build I mean they've customized it but the entire backend I imagine is just WordPress multisite. To be honest, they're probably using like one of the membership plugins, they're probably using Gravity Forms, most of it's probably plugins.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. I've I've seen the same thing with real estate sites. Oh sure, Sign up services for real estate and actually, like I run Photo Journal which is a custom rolled blogging network photographers but and I'm not just drawing a blank because I don't wanna mention a competitor's name but I actually can't remember their name. But there is a company out there that that basically does the same thing. It's just you sign up and you get a you get a WordPress blog.
Speaker 3:Yeah. For sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well And But this
Speaker 2:it's all run run as a SaaS app with subscriptions and recurring revenue and like it's customized with so there's all their custom gallery management and things like So you can really bend it to do something custom.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I think at a basic level, like like whenever I build websites on the side for friends or whatever, now I'm using multisite where I just set up each of those clients under a WordPress multisite. I hated the fact that I always had to I'd get emails at midnight and I'd have to service these things. So I just have them all on recurring revenue.
Speaker 1:So there's just this handful of people I've built websites for where I said, I'll build you a website, but I want you to pay something every month for hosting and to pay for my time when I answer emails. And yeah, I'm just doing that all through multisite. Now I don't have it automatic yet, but it wouldn't be that much work to create a hook into Recurly from the site creation point. I could almost have it working automatically.
Speaker 3:Yeah, where they sign up. Like you would have a membership plugin where they pay you and then they click a few buttons and put some add some text and they've got a website.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it'll be interesting to see there are Matt Mullenweg, in his last kind of WordPress address or blog post a while back, had said, First WordPress was a blogging engine, then it became a CMS. And he says, The next kind of step is it's going to become really what we're talking about, like an application platform.
Speaker 1:And I found that was really interesting because I've been thinking about that for a long time. But you're right, Dalen. There isn't actually a lot of people doing it or maybe they're just not talking about it. Think there's a lot of opportunity there. It would be great to actually hear anyone that's listening, even some pushback.
Speaker 1:I'm sure there's going to be opinions on this. You have a good reason why you might not want to use WordPress to build a product. But I think there's a lot of there's definitely a good case for building MVP. And I think, you know, I think there's also a case for maybe thinking about building actual products that solve not just content problems but business problems, etcetera,
Speaker 2:using WordPress. Yeah, definitely. Sort of to how you were just talking about this potentially being a polarizing issue with listeners and getting their feedback. I was thinking it would be cool too if anyone out there knows of any kind of significantly large product businesses that are run entirely off of WordPress, like maybe if you know of a SaaS app that's powered entirely by WordPress, like we'd we'd love to hear from you and tell us about the cool sites out there based on WordPress. We can maybe talk about them in the next show, do a little feedback or follow-up session.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know what? I think we're gonna have we should book another show with Dalen, like, I don't know, sometime in the future, but to talk about this again and, like, kind of touch base and say, What is happening? What has happened? What did we learn?
Speaker 1:Because I think for people that are interested in building products, this idea is really interesting. It's beyond clickable mock ups. It's beyond building prototypes in HTML. It's actually building an MVP with basic functionality. I think there's something really interesting here.
Speaker 2:For sure. I think in a year from now, this it'll be interesting to see how much things have progressed in this way just because, you know, lean is picking up so much steam and WordPress is getting better at such a, like, accelerating pace that it'll be really cool to see, yeah, in six months, twelve months, what people are able to do and what kinds of businesses are evolving from maybe what started off as a WordPress experiment.
Speaker 3:It's one of the things I loved about WordCamp a few weeks back, and I totally recommend that anyone who's into, even if you have no idea what WordPress is, if you're into like products, you're into services or you manage a website or whatever, it's so valuable to be around people who, because like Kyle said, most of the talks at WordPress weren't really like WordPress specific. It was more about, Hey, here's how you manage this or that about a website, right? And I totally think it's so valuable to be around that and even like in my workshop that I gave, just seeing people be like, you could just see in their faces, were like, Holy cow, like I could do some insane stuff with this. Like people who aren't developers or who maybe touch HTML or do some CSS, right, but they're not PHP developers. All of a sudden they came up to me after and they're like, Wow, so say if I tried this or with this membership plugin or this because I do this and I'd be like, yeah, that would be really simple to do.
Speaker 3:And they were just like and they just ran off and you could tell that night they probably went home and skipped the after party and started building something.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Started hacking.
Speaker 3:Stoked about it. Yeah. Because they're like, wow. All of a sudden it's like, I see this potential and I can make something. It sort of empowers people, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that's where the difference between maybe the pragmatists and sort of the, I guess, maybe hardcore developers are different. Like Right. People see WordPress as just this empowering tool that lets them build the awesome thing that they're picturing, whereas, you know, a developer maybe like just personally is more interested in cutting the code to do something. Know, they're more interested in the art of building versus solving a problem for customers.
Speaker 2:And that's where I think WordPress is really interesting because you've got, like you were saying earlier, people who maybe have their expertise isn't in web or programming. Their expertise isn't in some specific niche or industry. And to them WordPress is just a way to solve the types of problems that they're experiencing. They're not just building it for fun.
Speaker 3:Think a lot of that too is just people, I mean, and you know how it is, you spend years and years and years learning the craft of web development and it's not something everyone can do, right? So you feel this sense that this is something that not everyone should be able to do, right? But I mean, like I get super excited when I see people like stoked about building an idea or just coming up with something and I think looking at yourself as someone like who can help facilitate that and be like, Hey, I've got a lot of experience doing this. So here, maybe try this or like that maybe you could go at it from this direction, right? Rather than like thinking, No, you need to like, as a purist, Oh, you you need to write this using Django or whatever because otherwise it's just kiddie stuff, right?
Speaker 3:I think that's just silly. I think it's more about the product and it's more about or the end result and what the user interacts with rather than because honestly, is a user ever gonna know the difference between whether Exactly. Something was written in Rails or Django or WordPress? No one knows. No one cares.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think probably just doesn't work. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. The biggest hump I think for a lot of people like maybe like me, I guess I'm kind of getting over it, is just that whole like cognitive dissonance you feel when you know you've spent, you know, upwards of like maybe ten years learning to program and build things from scratch the right way. And then to kind of admit that you could do the same thing with WordPress in a couple hours, it just feels like it should be wrong. You know, it's your brain, your lizard brain is telling you that no, this can't be. This just can't be.
Speaker 3:I've been in rooms with clients or people where, and this happens every time where like usually when I develop a site for someone with WordPress, I'll sit down with them and do like a training session where it's like, I'll show them how to use WordPress or whatever. And every time we're, especially with something like Gravity Forms where I sit down and I'll be like, okay, so this is how you build a form. And I show them how to like, just drag a field out and give it a name. And then they're like, like the look on their face is just like, Are you kidding me? I can build a, like I could build like a whole, I could build a survey or whatever.
Speaker 3:It's like or I could, we could have people register and it's like and then you show them, Oh yeah, and you can tie it into PayPal and you can do this. Their draws are on the floor and they're just like, Wow. Yeah. It's like all of a sudden the veil has been lifted and they can like see behind the curtain, right? It's like
Speaker 2:That's usually when you hear them say, We paid a developer $15,000 to build this Oh, same functionality two or three years
Speaker 3:for sure. And I mean, I'm a developer and I've been on those projects and there are certain things that you need custom development for, right? It's like, I mean, WordPress doesn't do everything, but for, especially for companies that are like small and trying to be lean and like getting started. I mean, it's for sure the way to go and I have no problems telling people that it's like, No, you should use WordPress and it's going to cut the cost of the project by a huge margin and then you can focus on what's important, which is your product and making it awesome and that sort of thing, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Oh man, I love every single thing that's coming out of your mouth right now. Especially as a non developer,
Speaker 2:Let's this is keep this PG.
Speaker 1:I do feel empowered by this kind of talk. The idea that instead of wrangling code, we could actually focus on the problem and figure out the best way to solve that problem. Just love that idea of actually getting stuff done and getting something out the door and getting customers using it and then getting their feedback. And then you can decide how sophisticated does this machine need to be. Whole But
Speaker 2:conversation's been so amazing. Because that's why computers were invented, right? They were invented to solve problems in the real world. They weren't invented because people wanted to program something.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, oh man, I keep wanting to shut this conversation down because we gotta go pretty soon. But if you think about what got us into computers, and we've all mentioned it already, the first thing you did something in was Macro Media Director or that flash card system or whatever it was. There was always something accessible that got you in to computers or products or the web or whatever. And the idea that this is there and the whole world is going this way.
Speaker 1:So a year ago, you might have laughed at me if I said, Well, I'm going set up my own payment system, but now I can use Stripe. Even someone like me is definitely an amateur developer, I can register for a Stripe account and I can start collecting payments right away. Like $100,000 of value right there. It would have cost so much money to build that before and now it's accessible. And the whole world's going this way.
Speaker 1:There's plugins and all these kind of pieces that people can pull together and yeah, it's pretty exciting.
Speaker 3:I think too as a developer, the way I look at it is I think where the value, like for someone like myself, where the value comes like to say an organization that's looking to do something like this, the value that I provide is more in guidance like, Hey, here's what you can do. Like here's an opening their eyes to stuff because people like technology is still scary to most people, right? Like we're all sort of into this stuff and it's like, we're not scared by it and there's a lot of people that aren't, but most people if you say to them, even if you sit down with WordPress and it's like, you show them how to do this and that. I mean, they're lost and they need help with it.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 3:So if you can sort of like take that huge scary thing in the room called technology or the internet or whatever and make it so it's like, No, this is easy and here's what we can do and rather than saying, No, we can't do that. No, that's going to cost $50,000 It's like, Yes, we can do that and it's easy. I mean, people just love that and that's where you create value at least from my perspective where it's like you're providing a service to people. It's like the people love it when you can take their idea and make it happen and it's not painful and awful. I work with so many people who are just so disenchanted by web developers and they're just like, Oh, we just deal with, we hate dealing with this guy.
Speaker 3:He says no to everything and he can't whatever. Whereas if you can just take a second to explain stuff to people and make make sense it and be like, Hey, here's what you could do if you thought of this or this would be super simple, right? And they just, they love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Oh man, we could keep talking all night, but we should probably wind it down. And hey, Dalen, where can people find out more about you? Do you have a website, Twitter, LinkedIn, Yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm on Twitter. My username is just Dalen. That's D A E L A N. And my website's northrepublic.com or dalen.com. I'm old enough to be actually one of the few people that own myfirstname.com which
Speaker 2:is pretty That's so awesome.
Speaker 1:Oh man. I'm old too but I didn't have any money to register domain names back then.
Speaker 3:I mean, I'm lucky in that my name is unique enough where there's only like 20 people in the world named Dalen and I'm the guy that got to the internet first.
Speaker 1:Man, yeah. That's awesome. I can't
Speaker 2:even get kylefox.com. It's just like a placeholder page right now and it's been like that for years and I emailed them once and they're like, we've had offers as high as $50,000 so if Oh wow. If you want this domain, it needs to be even higher basically.
Speaker 1:So
Speaker 2:it doesn't look like I'll ever own kylefox.com. So I'm extremely jealous of your domain.
Speaker 1:Well believe it or not, we were able to get productpeople.tv which is where people can find our podcast And we're ProductPeopleTV on Twitter. And we'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback on the show. And even more, we'd love for you to fill out the survey that we're going to have on the sidebar of the website, productpeople.tv. We just want to hear who you are, what do you do, what kind of products do you want to build, that kind of stuff. And that gives us really good background into who we want to talk to and what kind of shows we want to have.
Speaker 1:And we actually have I don't know if we can announce it right now.
Speaker 2:Just maybe let's allude to the fact that
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've let's allude to it because the recording might not work and then we'd hate it But we have some really great guests coming up and we're so glad, Dalen, that you could kick us off and be our first guest. You're a really amazing guest. And yeah, if anyone out there has feedback on this show or future shows they'd like to hear, that's the place to go, productpeople.tv.
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